It's impeachment hearings day, and Maureen and Dan are talking about how we got here, what it means, and the movie the Candyman. Also, Rudy Giuliani wants to start a podcast and, good listener, we are here for it.
Great googliemooglies, SaysWhovia, are we in for a week! Impeachment time is here. This will be a week of hearings, tweeting, and a whole lot of info dumps and nonsense. It’s also going to be cold all get out for a lot of us, so we will be huddled indoors, watching democracy or something! Who knows?
Who knows? Well, Dan knows! Probably. He seems to. This is going to be a big week for impeachment.fyi. He’s going to need a whole lot of conspiracy wall to keep up! As for Maureen, well, she’s been waiting for this for a long time. She’s ready.
And you know who else is ready? Noted cybersecurity expert Rudy Giuliani. Rudy is thinking about starting his own impeachment podcast, and Maureen could not be more ready for it. Rudy has been busy recently, making friends and texting reporters. Which gives Maureen a little idea…
This week is going to be so newsy that there will be a second Says Who on Thursday. So settle in with your blankets and warm drinks, Says Who. We have some watching to do.
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Dan's tracking impeachment news and sending out updates every day. Sign up at impeachment.fyi
Watch Let it Snow, based on the book co-authored by Maureen November 8 on Netflix!
Maureen's new book The Vanishing Stair is OUT NOW. NOW!
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Your Intrepid Hosts: Maureen Johnson and Dan Sinker
Our awesome theme is courtesy of Ted Leo
We love Darth
Dan: This episode of Says Who is brought to you by you! Through your generous support at patreon.com/sayswho, we are able to make all of this happen. On a week like this, where there is news every second, your support helps us to find the time to do what we're going to do this week, which is give you two episodes of Says Who. So thank you. Patreon.com/sayswho.
Maureen: (singing)
Dan: Wow.
Maureen: Yeah. Yeah.
Dan: That was fancy.
Maureen: Yeah. You heard me. Hi, I'm Maureen Johnson, one of the authors of Let It Snow. It's on Netflix now. Watch it! Just watch it. It's free, basically. Just watch it. I don't know. Also, books. Truly Devious. The Truly Devious series, Vanishing Stair are books. Get them, read them. Yeah. That was pretty good. Boom.
Dan: Oh, that was great. And I am Dan. I am the author and creator of impeachment.fyi. There is a lot of news happening all the time, constantly. And it is hard to keep track of, so I am doing that for you. You can get it sent straight to your inbox every evening by subscribing at impeachment.fyi. It's like three minutes of reading instead of spending your entire day refreshing Twitter.
Maureen: Will you please state your full name for the record?
Dan: My name is Daniel Frederick Sinker.
Maureen: Daniel Frederick Sinker. And can you tell us what your profession is?
Dan: That's complicated.
Maureen: You are the creator of impeachment.fyi. Is that correct?
Dan: That is correct.
Maureen: Can you please tell the committee what impeachment.fyi is?
Dan: It is a little summary of the news of the day, of the ... How is this relevant?
Maureen: What is your connection to Ukraine?
Dan: I used to live in the neighborhood next to the Ukrainian village in Chicago. I used to go to a bakery that was a Ukrainian bakery.
Maureen: So you have interest in Ukraine?
Dan: I definitely have an interest in Ukrainian baked goods.
Maureen: Do you know Hunter Biden?
Dan: I don't. I honestly thought that Hunter Biden was a made up name for the first week or two that I heard it.
Maureen: And you are a journalist?
Dan: Yeah, I guess so.
Maureen: And who am I?
Dan: You?
Maureen: Yeah.
Dan: Are a ... You're a Congress ... Is this a trick question?
Maureen: No, Dan. Dan, I'm Maureen.
Dan: Oh, Maureen!
Maureen: Yeah.
Dan: I just really ... I was right in that hearing for a second. Oh.
Maureen: Dan?
Dan: Yeah?
Maureen: Is this week going to be confusing?
Dan: Ah, yes.
Maureen: Is it going to be sort of the equivalent of Gonzo being shot out of the cannon in the Muppet Show?
Dan: It's definitely going to involve landing in a big pile of chickens.
Dan: Welcome to Says Who, the podcast that isn't a podcast.
Maureen: It's a coping strategy. I'm Maureen Johnson.
Dan: And I am Dan Sinker. And, oh boy. Oh boy, Maureen.
Maureen: We're here! It's happening.
Dan: I basically woke up into a panic attack this morning.
Maureen: Cool. Why's that?
Dan: I got too much. I got too much, Maureen! There is a lot going on right now.
Maureen: So I heard-
Dan: There is a lot going on.
Maureen: You run a little something called impeachment.fyi.
Dan: I do. And it turns out that's a lot. But yeah, we've got ... You, SaysWhovian, are hearing this episode either right before, during, or right after the first open impeachment hearings to happen since the '90s. Only the third time in modern history that we've had impeachment hearings in the House of Representatives.
Maureen: Define modern.
Dan: There's a lot going on. Define ... 20th century, 21st century. I think that someone or other was impeached in the 1800s.
Maureen: Andrew Jackson.
Dan: There you go. There you go. Look at you. History buff Maureen Johnson, ladies and gentlemen.
Maureen: Well I think this is only the third impeachment in total, right?
Dan: No, because there were hearings for Nixon.
Maureen: Well there were ... but he was ...
Dan: If the House votes to impeach Donald Trump, which is highly likely, it will be the third time a President was impeached in all time, because Nixon resigned before that vote. But the hearings were under way.
Maureen: Clinton was impeached?
Dan: Clinton was impeached, yeah. But the Democrats controlled the Senate and did not convict.
Maureen: Impeach is a weird word, if you say it a lot.
Dan: Jesus Christ, Maureen. It is fucking bananas! I write impeachment multiple times a day, and it becomes more and more weird looking with each given day. The word peach is in the middle of it.
Maureen: Yeah.
Dan: And I think, every time that I must have spelled it wrong.
Maureen: Like, "Why is this tasty fruit in the middle of this legal proceeding?"
Dan: Yeah, exactly. And also there's the im versus in thing that throws me off. It is just one of those words ... You know when you repeat a word enough, it suddenly loses all meaning? Impeachment, for me, as a word ...
Maureen: Also, it's got mint in it.
Dan: Yeah.
Maureen: Even though it's ment, it's got mint. Yeah.
Dan: Yeah.
Maureen: So peach and mint.
Dan: The whole thing-
Maureen: Two flavors I really genuinely love.
Dan: Oh. Oh, like a little ... You could make a pretty nice little cocktail with a peach and a mint thing.
Maureen: Yeah, it's really tasty. Also like a black iced tea with peach and mint is delicious.
Dan: Oh, yeah. That sounds good.
Maureen: People have been making pies. I've seen a pie shop had impeachment pie.
Dan: Oh, like a peach-mint pie? Oh, that's so smart.
Maureen: That's sort of been ... So impeachment pie, impeachment drinks. And I think there was an impeachment, maybe a sorbet that I passed a sign for.
Dan: Oh, I bet. That sounds good.
Maureen: Yeah, all the New York-
Dan: All that sounds good.
Maureen: Yeah, so you can have a cocktail, a pie, some ice cream. These are all really things that ... That's very much my flavor profile of things I really enjoy, so I'm all for it.
Dan: Oh, man.
Maureen: Yeah. Nice.
Dan: You know, if Chicago was not fucking cold as fuck right now, some sort of frozen slushie cocktail thing with a peach and a ...
Maureen: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dan: Oh, that sounds good.
Maureen: Doesn't it sound nice?
Dan: That sounds good. It is fucking insane outside right now, Maureen. I don't-
Maureen: What's going on?
Dan: It is November. Usually it's nice in November. It is like eight degrees outside. We live on fucking Hoth. It's no good. It's no good. I don't meant to take away from this historic moment, but this is fucking historic, Maureen.
Maureen: Yeah, it's a big deal.
Dan: It is a big deal. Sometimes it is hard to get ... I realized that when I was writing last night's newsletter; that it's easy to lose track of the historic significance of it all. In large part because the way our media circus runs now, people are constantly saying that it's fake and that it ... And even if you know that it isn't, that seeps in. It takes away some of the significance of it, I think.
Dan: But this is significant. This is for real.
Maureen: Yes. This is the impeachment hearing week that ... I don't know, I feel like someone said there were going to be impeachment hearings in the fall. And it was one of us, I'm just trying to remember which one of us it was.
Dan: Ah, I don't know. I remember you saying that back in 2017.
Maureen: It was me.
Dan: Was that you?
Maureen: That was me.
Dan: Was that you for this year?
Maureen: Yeah.
Dan: You just renew it every year?
Maureen: Look, Dan. It's happening, isn't it?
Dan: It is happening, Maureen. It is happening. And SaysWhovians, we have an impeachment special for you, in that you are going to get two episodes of Says Who this week: one today, and one later in the day on Thursday.
Maureen: So yeah, we'll record ... What time are the hearings tomorrow?
Dan: They start at 9:00 am Central.
Maureen: Oh, boy. Fun.
Dan: 10:00 am Eastern.
Maureen: Fun!
Dan: 10:00 am Eastern, and it's a twofer. I'm not entirely sure why, but they have two people testifying at the same time. We got William Taylor, who is the acting US Ambassador to the Ukraine. He actually has a very fancy name. Acting Ambassador isn't a thing, Maureen. He has a very fancy name. He is the Chargé d'Affaires.
Maureen: Oh. Oh la la.
Dan: Yeah, that's ...
Dan: That's the term for an acting Ambassador. So he is testifying alongside George Kent, who is a Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs and wears really good looking bow ties. He has a really good kind of a professorial look to him.
Maureen: I haven't even-
Dan: But yeah, they are both-
Maureen: I haven't even heard that guy's name.
Dan: So his basic deal is that he has given a lot of insight into what was going on at the State Department, and kind of was one of the people that was like, "The fuck? Rudy Giuliani is fucking running a deal." I believe one of the quotes that came out of the testimony that got released was John Bolton joking to him that, "Every time you mention Ukraine, Rudy Giuliani pops up," like a real shitty Candyman.
Dan: Here's a question I have, Maureen.
Maureen: Okay.
Dan: Is the Candyman a reference that only is relevant to people from Chicago that grew up at a certain age, or does everyone remember the horror movie The Candyman?
Maureen: I know that you're supposed to say, "Candyman," a couple ... but I don't know what it is.
Dan: You got to say, "Candyman," five times in a mirror, and then he appears behind you. Often confused with Beetlejuice, where you just have to say his name three times.
Maureen: Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice. Right. I thought it was three times, so yeah.
Dan: Yeah. Candyman is five times. But the movie takes place in the Chicago Housing Projects, Cabrini-Green, specifically. And it's a super great film because it is a horror movie in a context and a location that you really never, ever see. And for me growing up in the shadows of Chicago and the sort of notoried notoriousness of the projects in the '80s and '90s, I was very fascinated by that movie. This is a very long divergence, but I will say that Jordan Peele is making a sequel to The Candyman. And the best thing about it is the Cabrini-Green projects have been torn down. They were torn down quite a while ago. And now, it is a super fancy upscale neighborhood, a total yuppie, gentrified town homes and shopping malls. There's a Whole Foods right there and shit like that.
Maureen: I was about to say there's a Whole Foods, but yeah.
Dan: Yeah. He is setting it in the same place. So now it is going to be sort of a meta story of gentrification, which is amazing, to me.
Maureen: Whoa!
Dan: I am so fucking excited for that movie.
Maureen: Man, Jordan Peele is-
Dan: Anyway, what were we talking about?
Maureen: Is he just the best director of this age?
Dan: Fucking shit, Maureen. I watched ... Because I have young children, I do not go to movie theaters a lot if it does not involve a Marvel or a Star War, but so I just watched Us about a month ago. That shit blew my mind.
Maureen: Yeah, Get Out was the movie that ... You can never say something makes you understand prejudice, because we haven't lived it.
Dan: Yeah.
Maureen: But it gives you that ... I felt like I was like, "This is the psychology." He's managed to express the fear, like why white people are scary. And that fear, it does the thing that great art does. It was like, "Oh. Oh!"
Dan: Well, and just the idea of using horror movie tropes to tell larger societal stories is ...
Maureen: Yeah.
Dan: He does that really fucking well. Holy shit, he does it well.
Maureen: And how is he so good at both horror and comedy? Are they linked in the back, horror and comedy?
Dan: I think they're totally linked. Yeah, absolutely. Without a doubt. I mean, if you think about great horror movies, there is a level of absurdity to them. Right? There is an amplified reality to them. Think about the Nightmare on Elm Street series, or something like that. That is ... Yeah, there is a ... They are along a continuum, for sure; horror and comedy are, I would argue.
Maureen: Yeah, I don't know how he so consistently nails and has such good-
Dan: He's good.
Maureen: He's good.
Dan: That dude is fucking good.
Maureen: Key and Peele and the Twilight Zone and his movies; I mean, that's ... I don't know.
Dan: Yeah.
Maureen: That guy is working on a wavelength that ... Ah, he's good.
Dan: It's fun. It's fun to see people really-
Maureen: What were we talking about? Were we talking about something more-
Dan: Oh, we were talking about-
Maureen: But this is a big deal, that-
Dan: We were talking about impeachment, Maureen.
Maureen: We have to talk ... We are really ... I have been saying, "Summer of '73!" I've been shouting it for a while, but we're here now. We're actually ... We're here in the hearings week. And in the past, we really had to battle it out to get those tapes out of Nixon and we've really got a lot of the stuff already. So this week is going to be a-
Dan: It is.
Maureen: Yeah.
Dan: Yeah.
Maureen: This week is going to be about telling people what to think about things they are looking at.
Dan: Right. And I mean, that's ... There is something fitting, to me, that we finally have reached impeachment of Donald Trump. And it is like the meta of everything about Donald Trump from jump; which is, it is all right there in front of you.
Maureen: Right.
Dan: It's just whether you choose to acknowledge it or you choose to say that what is in front of you is not real.
Maureen: Because we're ... I want a psychologist. What we need is a psychologist. Because, you know, Dan, one of my-
Dan: Just generally, I agree.
Maureen: One of my big hobbies and interests is cults.
Dan: Yeah.
Maureen: I read about them constantly. I just have always been fascinated in how people get swept up in things that, the second that you kind of take a couple steps back, make very little sense.
Dan: Right.
Maureen: And again, I've said this before; we grew up in a real cult-y. There were a lot of cults, cult-breakers. And also, I was an outsider at a very Catholic school, which meant that I didn't ... I was walking into a context I didn't understand.
Dan: Yeah.
Maureen: And everybody kind of accepting something that I was less accepting of. I was like, "I don't really understand the rule set here, and I don't think this makes sense to me," which is not a ... It's just an outsider coming, looking around going, "But why? Why does this happen this way?" Which is-
Dan: Right.
Maureen: I'm not comparing Catholicism and Trump, I'm just talking about insider-outsider. That's a different conversation, but it-
Dan: Oops.
Maureen: Just insider-outsider. But what gets people swept up; organizes people and then to the point where you start saying things like the Manson girls saying, "We're cutting holes in the back of our clothes, because that's where are wings are going to come out of." Or the Doomsday cults say multiple times that the world's going to end on specific dates. And when it doesn't, they double down. The double down and say, "Well, the prophecy was wrong." And how you have to really keep doubling down on your denial of reality; of-
Dan: Yeah.
Maureen: You need to be able to look at a thing and have your leader tell you the thing you are looking at, that square, is a circle. And at first, you're like, "It's a square."
Dan: Right.
Maureen: And then you slowly slide over until you're like, "Well, that's a circle." So this mentality ... And it is terrifying and fascinating to watch, of like ... Of course it can happen here, it is happening here. So it will be fascinating to see people just straight up being shown and told something that happened and then just saying, "Well, that's okay. That's not what happened."
Dan: Right. I mean, it's that famous quote. Like, "Who are you going to believe, me or your own lying eyes?"
Maureen: Or your own lying eyes? Yeah. Yeah.
Dan: I mean, the thing that has proven out ... So again, I am following this closer than most. So this is heavily ingrained in my head. But basically, you had a call between Donald Trump and the President of Ukraine back in July. And in that call, he asked the President of Ukraine to do a favor. Implicit within that was, "In return for military aide," which at the time, had been held. And that favor was to look into Joe Biden.
Dan: When word of that call and kind of word of the fact that there was a whistleblower that was interested in that call, or concerned about that call, came out in late August ... Or no, in late September.
Maureen: I was in Greece, Dan.
Dan: Yeah.
Maureen: That's my memories.
Dan: September 24th was when Pelosi announced the impeachment proceedings, so it was sort of in the two weeks leading to that.
Maureen: I watched this with the Ionian Sea gently swaying in the background.
Dan: Ah, but anyway ...
Maureen: It's ingrained my memory, those crazy days of that vote in Parliament, and all of this Ukrainian stuff. It's all to the background of Albania and the Ionian Sea.
Dan: Man. At least that's good. You've got a good mental connection, there.
Maureen: I do, and it-
Dan: You can always go back into that sea when you feel stressed.
Maureen: I do! Kind of. That is actually happening, a little bit, was that this Ukrainian stuff is so linked to me being at that place, because I was running in and out of this room.
Dan: Yeah.
Maureen: Now, I realize that's not everybody. But also, it felt very classical.
Dan: But so ... Okay, so when the word came out about this, Trump had a very rambling press conference in which he said he would release the transcript of that call. And in fact, a couple of days later, they released what is actually a summary transcript. It is not an exact word-for-word transcript; it is some sort of condensing. And in fact, an open question is what was left out, and what was not left out.
Dan: But anyway, he claimed this would exonerate him, as a perfect call. And yet, in that call, which we released an entire episode where we simply read it, the Ukrainian President is asking for military aide. And Donald Trump is basically saying, "Yeah, okay, cool. I need a favor from you." Like literally says, "I need a favor."
Dan: Since that time, the House has held closed-door depositions. Many of them have been thwarted by the White House, that told all White House employees that they could not comply. But they have gotten over a dozen, I think, people. Definitely over a dozen folks that have testified. Many from the State Department, some actually from the White House, some from the Department of Defense, et cetera. And over and over and over again, they have corroborated everything. We now have transcripts that have been released over the last week and a half, and they are ... Each one of these transcripts is hundreds of pages long. There are thousands of pages of transcript out, now. And every single person backs up the basic contours of all of this. We now know all about this held up aide, we know all about the interest in the Bidens, we know that Rudy Giuliani was just fucking around in Ukraine constantly. There is very little that is mystifying right now.
Dan: So it is a funny impeachment proceeding, because we know the deal. And yet, we're told every day that it's not true.
Maureen: Yeah. It's like we're at a ... If we're reading the murder mystery or watching the murder mystery movie, the person is standing there, they've got the gun smoking in their hand, there's the body on the floor, you can still smell the recent shot in the air, everybody else was out on a boat. Come back in, he's standing there, and he's like, "Well yeah, I fired the gun. I fired this gun perfectly. I used it to ... I mean, yeah the bullet hit him. But I mean ... Yeah, but it was like ... That's just what you do." Or something. I don't even know. It doesn't even make sense. That doesn't make sense, what I just said. Because none of this fucking makes sense. Dan, could I just have-
Dan: Right. I mean, it literally is like ... His defense is simply to say, "Yeah, but if you just look at how I fired the gun, you'll see that I fired it perfectly."
Maureen: All right, Dan. I think we need to remember right now what this is that we do. And that is a coping strategy. And right now, people are going to watch this week, an impeachment hearing, and we are two weeks away from Thanksgiving, the most fraught holiday of the year.
Dan: Jesus Christ.
Maureen: Let's not pretend that Thanksgiving is a fun fest. Okay, maybe for some of you, it is a fun fest, and may God bless you and keep you. But for some of us, it is tense as fuck because we have Trump voters in our family, and there is loving people and having connections, and also just talking about what's right. About what's right, and what's real.
Dan: Yeah.
Maureen: And we're going to have ... How long are the impeachment hearings, Dan? I know there's two this week, but-
Dan: We don't-
Maureen: We don't know?
Dan: There is Wednesday this week, where there're two folks. And then there's Friday, where fired Ukrainian Ambassador Maria Yovanovitch is testifying. We know that they are going to schedule more for next week. Then, we'd run into Thanksgiving week, where they are taking time off. I have read a couple of different things. One is, they're really trying to wrap this up next week. And the other is, there's no fucking way they're wrapping this up next week.
Maureen: Something becomes very clear to me as you say this.
Dan: Yeah.
Maureen: So we are running right hot into Thanksgiving.
Dan: Yeah.
Maureen: We are going to need to make a Says Who episode for people to listen to, just like ... Maybe it's a Town Watch, or maybe it's just some reassuring words. It's not even going to be a news-related one. It's just us telling you you're not crazy; to take a deep breath, to walk away. You can listen to it in the bathroom. It'll be like, again, a little meditation. Maybe just 10 minutes of something that you can just listen to and be like, "Hey, we're right here. We're your friends. We've got this. We know. We've been there."
Dan: Oh, God.
Maureen: Dan, I need to talk to you about a coping thing right now. I need you to be my therapist. Why? Why do I care?
Dan: All right.
Maureen: I know people, but a lot of them are like ... People don't fucking care about, just don't really know, from Facebook, usually people I went to high school with or am, in some way, connected to, that are Trump defenders, and I've disconnected most of them. I only keep the ones that don't really talk about it, but I know that they are. And the anger I feel, the constant anger that has no direction, I need to make my anger into a useful tool. I need to take the little energy channel, put it in a wire, and connect it to something helpful.
Dan: Right.
Maureen: Am I just a ... I'm from Philadelphia, which is a lot of what is wrong with me. I mean, in terms of just background. And just personality. We are the city that throws batteries when provoked. Or even just when we see Santa. So we're just like ... You know what I mean? We're just ... Dan, help me. What? Just help me. What do I do? Help me. Am I a bad person?
Dan: Oh, gosh no.
Maureen: Is that it?
Dan: You are a great person.
Maureen: Now you're just saying that.
Dan: So I think ... Okay, so there are a couple of things there. So thing one. The reason why you can't fully disconnect from people that you feel like are sort of caught up in the throws of this is because watching people get gaslit is painful. All right? It is hard. Because one of the things that is remarkable about right now is the way that people defend Trump and his actions, is simply to remove what the actions are so that all you're doing is defending Trump. And this has been true since the first word came out that the FBI was investigating the campaign. Right? That in order to defend what was actually the Federal Bureau of Investigation's getting word that a Presidential campaign was potentially getting help from the Russian government; that is something you investigate. The only way to defend against that is to remove that and simply say the Federal Bureau of Investigation should not be investigating Presidential candidates.
Maureen: Right.
Dan: Without touching, there. And that's sort of where we have been since. And watching people fall for that, watching that happen is hard, and it is painful, especially if it is people that we care about. So I think that's thing one.
Maureen: Wait, it's like someone has taken a shit on the floor, and we all point and say, "You've taken a shit on the floor." And then they come over, and they've put a clear plastic box over it.
Dan: Yeah.
Maureen: And then they go, "Well, that's not shit. That's a plastic box."
Dan: Exactly. Exactly. The other thing is that anger isn't all terrible. That would be the other side of it, I would say. You know? The famous line from the Avengers where Bruce Banner says, "That's my secret, Cap. I'm always angry."
Maureen: That's what I feel like.
Dan: And then he turns into the Hulk.
Maureen: That's how I feel.
Dan: That's how I have felt my whole fucking life, Maureen.
Maureen: Yeah, well me, too. I guess that's why the-
Dan: Yeah.
Maureen: I guess that's why the two of us ended up making this and why we are the way we are.
Dan: Yeah. You know? I mean, I ... This is another divergence, but last night I was cooking. And I was listening to the very first Elvis Costello record, which I listened to basically non-stop my freshman year of high school. I have not listened to in a very long time. I realized last night that I know literally every word to that entire record. And that record ... And what struck me, hearing it for the first time in quite a while, was just how every fucking song on that record is about how mad he is. You know? And I realized like, "Jesus, that's why I loved this record so much."
Maureen: Which album is that?
Dan: My Aim is True.
Maureen: Is Oliver's Army on that?
Dan: No. I think that's Get Happy. I'm not sure.
Maureen: Okay, all right.
Dan: Or the one with the elephant on the front. It's My Aim is True, it's I'm Not Angry.
Maureen: Armed Forces.
Dan: Allison. Yes. And so the second thing that struck me is, "Wow. That is a fucking misogynist record." It's insane how misogynist that record is. Most of his anger is directed towards women, which is not great. But you-
Maureen: Welcome to all of rock.
Dan: Yeah, basically. But it just helped me to-
Maureen: Except for that made by women.
Dan: Yeah. It helped me to understand like, "Oh, right. This feeling of right now-"
Maureen: Oh, excuse me. Hold on. And the Clash. What am I doing, just putting Joe Strummer in with all of that. Thank you, Joe Strummer. Joe Strummer always representing for women. It's true.
Dan: He's a good one.
Maureen: Lover's Rock?
Dan: He was a good one.
Maureen: I mean, come on. That's a progressive song. Joe Strummer always knew what was up.
Dan: Anyway, point being, Maureen, that feeling of anger is real, but it is also constructive. At least, that's the working theory that I've had for the last almost 45 years, Maureen. My birthday is on Thursday.
Maureen: Oh! I'm sorry, Dan. We're going to report on your birthday, now.
Dan: Yeah, we are. We are. This was a very long way of saying that SaysWhovians, there will be two episodes of Says Who this week; this one before impeachment hearings, and then on Thursday after the first set. Town Watch, you will get a third episode of Says Who that'll come out on Friday that is special for you; Maureen Johnson talking about Watergate until her dog shits the floor.
Maureen: Okay, yes. That's ... Yes. All right, yes. Look, Dan. Something else wonderful happened this week.
Dan: Yeah!
Maureen: I need to talk to you about this.
Dan: I would love to.
Maureen: I need to talk to you about this. So news has come out that ... Even as saying this, I got such a flutter in my throat that I almost couldn't talk for a second.
Dan: I heard that.
Maureen: Yeah. Rudy Giuliani is thinking about ... Even saying it out loud is so ... I can't. Rudy Giuliani is thinking about starting an impeachment podcast.
Dan: Yes, he is!
Maureen: Dan.
Dan: Do you think he'd do it with us?
Maureen: I don't think it's out of the question, Dan. Because apparently he'll fuck around with just about anybody. Which is part of what I'm about to tell you.
Dan: We need to get that phone number.
Maureen: Oh, you've got to know ... We definitely know at least one of the person that has this number. Let's get this number.
Dan: I bet you I know a half dozen people, at a minimum, that have his phone number.
Maureen: Dan, please try.
Dan: Because we could just pitch him.
Maureen: Yeah, and just please try. There's no harm in ... You have enough connections to get this phone number. It's not hard.
Dan: I do. I probably do.
Maureen: But now, I am ... And to show you how easy it is, I'm going to read for you, and I'm going to read a lot of this article directly, so I want to credit it. This is in Salon. This is an article by Roger Sollenberger. You can follow him on Twitter, you can follow him ... This article is great. It's called-
Dan: I'm excited, because I have not read this article.
Maureen: Oh, Dan. Get ready.
Dan: My body is ready.
Maureen: The article is called Who is Rudy Giuliani's Friend "Charles"? An Accidental Text May Have Outed His Identity.
Dan: Oh, no!
Maureen: Again, to be ... You didn't hear about this, yet? Dan, get ready.
Dan: No. I mean, Charles is the person that is-
Maureen: Yes.
Dan: ... he's speaking to on the voicemail that he left on a different reporter's ...
Maureen: Sit back.
Dan: Oh, my goodness.
Maureen: Sit back as I read this to you.
Dan: I'm ready.
Maureen: At the end of September, a journalist friend gave me Rudy Giuliani's phone number. When I called, he picked up on the second ring and promptly divulged previously unreported details about his collaboration with State Department officials on a quid pro quo this summer. Those conversations helped inform a report I filed with BuzzFeed, which was corroborated the next day in testimony and text messages from former Special Envoy to Ukraine Kurt Volker.
Maureen: Giuliani forgot my name almost immediately, but we kept in touch. Truth is, I enjoy speaking with him. Two days after publication, on the evening he attended a Yankees playoff game with Alan Dershowitz, Giuliani, President Donald Trump's 75-year-old informal cybersecurity adviser, accidentally-
Dan: Oh, no. You always going to be good when he gets that title.
Maureen: ... accidentally texted me what appeared to be a password: Eight characters, beginning with the name of a networking company and including a capital letter, a special character, and a number. Multiple IT experts confirmed it could be nothing else, and, given the iPhone's messaging setup, impossible to type with your butt or in any other unwitting way.
Maureen: After an internal ethical debate, I alerted him. He replied, “Oh, that was just a butt dial,” but thanked me, punctuated with a smiley-face emoji.
Maureen: Giuliani runs a global cybersecurity firm, but his technological gaffes have become legendary. After texting me the password, an NBC report revealed he'd, at the same time, butt-dialed a journalist and accidentally left a voicemail documenting his discussion with an associate about how to get cash. “You know,” Giuliani says at the beginning of the recording, “Charles would have a hard time with a fraud case because he didn't do any due diligence.”
Maureen: At the time it was unclear who “Charles” was, but I might have found him. And I found him, through all things, in Giuliani's attempt to straighten up his media act.
Maureen: Again, this is the Salon article I'm reading. You should read it, and follow the author, because it's great.
Maureen: That's because in late September Giuliani hired a communications director. The new hire, 20-year-old Liberty University Online communications major, Christianné Allen, is currently the most solid connection between the work the President's private attorney was doing in Ukraine, an ongoing federal investigation into two of his clients, and a Long Island personal injury lawyer who for reasons still unclear reportedly paid Giuliani $500,000 in two lump-sum “loans” on behalf of a scam business in the fall of 2018.
Dan: Jesus Christ.
Maureen: And so-
Dan: Hold on. Just back up one second.
Maureen: Sure.
Dan: A 20-year-old Liberty University student?
Maureen: A 20-year-old Liberty University Online communications major.
Dan: Okay. But not graduate.
Maureen: No.
Dan: You're 20. You're still in school.
Maureen: Oh, we're getting into it, Dan. And so-
Dan: Okay, all right.
Maureen: As I thumbed through an Instagram account, I found myself wondering why in the world Rudy Giuliani hired this woman, who can't help but document everything she does, everywhere she goes, sowing circumstantial evidence across the internet that could impact impeachment proceedings against the President of the United States.
Maureen: A few weeks into my conversations with Giuliani, I got a call from a tidewater-area Virginia number. A polite young woman told me I'd been calling Rudy on “an office line,” and she wanted to know my name and affiliation. I told her, then looked her up: Christianné Allen.
Maureen: The connections between Allen and Giuliani at first struck me as superficial: Why did Giuliani, a former U.S. attorney and mayor of New York City, the President's personal lawyer and an untamed media presence, to put it charitably, hire a wildly unqualified pseudo-evangelical Turning Point USA social media personality to clean up his comms operations?
Dan: Seems like a legitimate question.
Maureen: The first red flag was Allen's experience. She styles herself as a jet-setting, gun-porning, right-wing Instagram influencer.
Dan: Oh, boy.
Maureen: Her online bios say that ... Sorry. My window refreshed.
Maureen: Her online bios say she was a “spokeswoman” for the 2016 Trump campaign, but in reality she was a teenage intern with a thin record of spokeswomaning. Allen also did social media for the 2008 congressional campaign of far-right Republican long-shot Tim Donnelly, founder of the California-
Dan: Wait. 2008?
Maureen: Teen.
Dan: Oh, okay.
Maureen: 2018.
Dan: I was going to be like, "She was nine!" Okay.
Maureen: Sorry.
Dan: ... of the California Minutemen Party, who didn't even come close to winning even the GOP vote. She volunteered for Virginia Women for Trump, and her bios say she now serves on the finance committee for Trump Victory Committee. Allen's LinkedIn omits her work on the Donnelly campaign.
Dan: But her LinkedIn page has an anomaly: A 2016 summer internship Allen landed at a Long Island personal injury firm, a long way from her rural Virginia home.
Dan: That personal injury firm is ... Sorry. This page keeps refreshing itself ... is, I can't pronounce. It's an Italian last name. Gucciardo. It's got two Cs in it, which is always hard for me to pronounce, because ...
Maureen: Yeah.
Dan: Gucciardo, that sounds right.
Maureen: Gucciardo. Okay, thank you ... Law, headed by Charles Gucciardo. I'm going to have to say this 5,000 times.
Dan: Charles?
Maureen: Last week Giuliani and Charles confirmed to the New York Times that Charles gave $500,000 to the former mayor through Giuliani's firm, Giuliani Partners, in two payments in September and October 2018. According to Charles's lawyer, the payments went to Giuliani on behalf of Fraud Guarantee, a company co-managed by Giuliani's clients-
Dan: Oh, Lev and Igor.
Maureen: Lev and Igor. Their work with Fraud Guarantee, whose mission statement is to help their customers “reduce and mitigate fraud,” helped earn them a federal indictment last month.
Maureen: Charles's lawyer told the Times ... God damn it. Stop refreshing, page ... that the loans, they were loans convertible into equity in the company. As the Times pointed out, though, Fraud Guarantee doesn't seem to have any clients or customers, and it's unclear why someone in Charles's position, an experienced lawyer, would invest half a million dollars in such a company. Per Charles's lawyer, he did so because Giuliani was involved, and Giuliani was “the first name in cybersecurity.”
Maureen: In a conversation, Stephen LaMagna, a lawyer who represents-
Dan: I know personally at least a dozen people that would be more the first name of cyber security than Rudy Giuliani.
Maureen: Is one of them your four-year-old son?
Dan: Basically, yes.
Maureen: So this person just starts to ... It goes more and more into the connection between this ... It really goes into depth, and it's fairly magical. There's a lot more article, here.
Dan: Man, I am following the exploits of Lev Parnas and Igor a lot, and that one did not cross my radar.
Maureen: So I've only told you the sort of beginning of this story, so this really goes on.
Dan: Oh, no.
Maureen: But this is the case for why this is Charles. And it makes sense when you see it. He really goes in detail. So because Giuliani forwarded him a password, he was able to make these connections. Noted cyber security expert, Rudy Giuliani.
Maureen: So this is the man who may start an impeachment podcast.
Dan: Love it.
Maureen: Can you imagine the crazy shit he's going to lay down every day, Dan? Can you brain even take in the wonder?
Dan: Well, there's also the whole like, "Dude! You are a central character in all of this! How much self-incrimination are you in for?"
Maureen: Yeah, they can't-
Dan: He can't comment on this without putting himself in the mix.
Maureen: Mm-hmm (affirmative), mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dan: But more so, I think about when we have had guests, it is often a technical nightmare to get everyone's stuff working. I think his podcast would be 90% just him talking into the wrong side of a mic and ending up with all the levels wrong. It would be all tinny, and then suddenly all basey, and then he would suddenly think it stopped recording for a while, and he'd be like, "What stopped? Oh, I guess it's still going." It would be like 40 minutes of that every day.
Maureen: I think it's 40 minutes of the thinks he recorded, but they didn't, and then he actually hits record when he's done.
Dan: Yes.
Maureen: And then we just get 40 minutes of his conversation.
Dan: We have done that before. There have been one or two times where I go to hit stop recording, and I realize I never hit it.
Maureen: Dan, it-
Dan: And we aren't Rudy Giuliani.
Maureen: If this happens, if this happens, I may have some sort of joy aneurysm. A mixture of joy and shock. I'm not-
Dan: Maureen Johnson.
Maureen: What?
Dan: I think it's a big if, if it happens.
Maureen: Oh.
Dan: And I'm willing to put a big thing down if it does.
Maureen: Listen, Dan. I got it. Listen to me. Listen to me right now. I have a plan. I've got the-
Dan: I bet we have the same plan. Go!
Maureen: You get that phone number. You text him and say you produce podcasts, because you do, and offer him our help.
Dan: That was not my plan, but I like it.
Maureen: Dan.
Dan: My plan was if he does a podcast, we start a second podcast that is simply a episode summary podcast of Rudy Giuliani's podcast.
Maureen: Oh, we do both. We do both of these. Dan! You've got to get this phone number.
Dan: It's like the TV shows that make their own podcast about the TV show; we produce his show and we do the after show.
Maureen: Yes! Dan.
Dan: I like it.
Maureen: I think it's a long shot. But what's amazing is, I don't think it's an impossibility. I genuinely don't. If you get his phone number and legitimately say, "I am a journalist. I will help you produce your ... " That's all true. None of that's ... There's absolutely no double-deal, it's all just literally true and we literally will.
Dan: Oh my God.
Maureen: Dan! You did impeachment.fyi. Look what's ... You could just say, "I produce impeachment.fyi. I'm more than willing ... I'm a Chicago-based media journalist person ... " Dan, get the fucking phone number this morning.
Dan: God.
Maureen: I swear to God, Dan. I'm going to die. We can get it.
Dan: Yeah, we could.
Maureen: Dan, do it.
Dan: Oh, God. We could.
Maureen: Dan, I'm dying. Dan! We've got to do this. Dan!
Dan: Oh, my word. Oh, my God.
Maureen: All right? You got to promise me you'll try.
Dan: I'll try.
Maureen: I'll give you anything you want.
Dan: I'll try.
Maureen: I will-
Dan: Wow!
Maureen: I'll give you anything you want.
Dan: A trip to Disney World.
Maureen: I will ... Okay. At Disney, I will get you ... What do you want at Disney?
Dan: I don't know. I just got back. We just got our photos from that trip. It was so fun. It was so fun.
Maureen: Promise all of SaysWhovia you will at least try to get this phone number.
Dan: I am going to try. I will try.
Maureen: Okay.
Dan: I will try to get the phone number. I'm a little scared. Can you hear it in my voice? I'm a little scared. But Maureen, what I'm scared about is that he'll say yes.
Maureen: I know.
Dan: Because this is a dude that does not do a lot of checkin on who he's working with, I think.
Maureen: This is a guy that formed a company called Fraud Guarantee. Dan!
Dan: Technically, he didn't form Fraud Guarantee; he works for Fraud Guarantee.
Maureen: Okay. All right, there.
Dan: Jesus Christ, Maureen Johnson! Oh, my word. This week is going to end me, Maureen.
Maureen: I hope you don't-
Dan: It is.
Maureen: I hope you don't have a lot of other things going on this week.
Dan: I have a lot of things going on this week.
Maureen: Okay, all right.
Dan: Including my birthday!
Maureen: You're going to have to cancel those things, including your birthday.
Dan: Yeah. My birthday is essentially canceled, at this point. There's a college thing at the high school that night, and today I was like, "You know what? Let's just basically celebrate my birthday over the weekend." Because there is a lot going on. There is a lot going on, and SaysWhovians, that means there's going to be a lot of Says Who this week. This is the first of two episodes that will be showing up in your regular podcast feed. We will have an impeachment hearing special coming out for all people this Thursday, later in the day. We'll record it in the morning, we'll put it out probably in the early afternoon. And then if you're a Town Watch subscriber, watch your Town Watch feed. That is people that are at the $5 and up level on patron, because there will be a special Town Watch episode all about Watergate coming to you on Friday.
Maureen: Dan?
Dan: Yeah.
Maureen: You're going to give us an update about asking for that phone number.
Dan: All right, I will.
Maureen: I'm counting on you. I'm counting on you
Dan: I will. I'm going to ... I've got some connects. I'm trying to figure out which ones I want to burn and which ones I don't.
Maureen: Are you really burning?
Dan: Maybe. Maybe not.
Maureen: All right.
Dan: Yeah, like I said, I bet you know I know at least six people, solidly, that have that number. So I want to pick and choose. I have to think a little bit, where we're at.
Maureen: All right.
Dan: But, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think I might get a burner phone number, though.
Maureen: Oh!
Dan: I don't know.
Maureen: Yes.
Dan: I don't know that I want to use my actual phone number for this one.
Maureen: Oh, and Dan, that's all covered in SaysWhovia's funds. That is what the patron is for. If you get that number-
Dan: It wouldn't cover burner phones.
Maureen: Oh, Dan! Absolutely! Our patrons are paying for your burner phone to text Rudy Giuliani to help him set up his God damn podcast.
Dan: Oh, my word. Oh, my word.
Maureen: But then he can butt dial you, and you can get extra recordings.
Dan: Oh, my God. Oh, my God. I feel genuinely uncomfortable right now, but-
Maureen: It'll be fine.
Dan: I know what I have to do.
Maureen: Dan.
Dan: It probably won't be fine.
Maureen: At the worst, he won't reply.
Dan: Oh, he will reply. What part of everyone's interactions with Rudy Giuliani over the last month makes you think he won't reply?
Maureen: Maybe he's learned.
Dan: Sure. Sure.
Maureen: People do.
Dan: Oh, speaking on patron, at patreon.com/sayswho, you can help support this whole thing, this shenanigan and all the other shenanigans of Says Who, as well as the general setup for it, starting at just $1, where you get access to some blog stuff. $2, you get stickers. $5, that's the real one where you get access to the Town Watch, where this week you will get more Says Who than you can handle. $10 a month, you get a pin of Wedgie, the wedge salad mascot of SaysWhovia. And there are now bonus gifts for lengthier support. If you support at the $10 a month level for four months, we are commissioning a map of Says Who, and Maureen Johnson, just prior to recording today, we finalized details for the artist.
Maureen: Yeah, it's going to be-
Dan: I'm really excited.
Maureen: It's a really good artist. And so because of your funding, we're able to hire an artist and pay her properly to make a really beautiful map. And also buy Dan a God damn burner phone to text Rudy Giuliani.
Dan: Anyway, patreon.com/sayswho.
Maureen: This is becoming incredibly magical, and I am so excited.
Dan: Oh, my god.
Maureen: Dan, also, one more thing.
Dan: Oh, my God.
Maureen: One more thing.
Dan: Yeah?
Maureen: Can I have my sticker?
Dan: Oh, yeah. I need to get that. Yeah. Actually, I'm going to the post office today. I will get sticker in the mail to you today, I promise.
Maureen: Do you-
Dan: Because I have a mailing of international SaysWhovian things that go out, so I have to take those to the post office proper.
Maureen: Would it make you feel more comfortable-
Dan: Can't just run them through the-
Maureen: ... if I bought the burner phone with cash and mailed it to you so you don't even have that kind of connection?
Dan: Better. No, I can handle it. I'm going to look into ... There might be options for simply being able to send texts without even having a phone. So I'm going to look into some options, here. Oh, yeah. I could totally do that way. All right, anyway, point being ... Our theme music is performed by Ted Leo. Our logo is designed by Darth.
Maureen: They both have that-
Dan: Both of those are fine human and red pandas-
Maureen: With bags of burner phones.
Dan: Respectively. Both of them, just dragon.
Maureen: Darth's cave is just full of burner phones.
Dan: You can contact us @SaysWhoPodcast on Twitter. You can email at hey, that is H-E-Y, @sayswhopodcast.com. You can join the discussion on Facebook at /groups/sayswhovians. Our Facebook group is moderated by Janice Dillard. Maureen Johnson, we didn't even discuss Says Who You yet! Says Who You, our initiative for taking a little away from the news and away from screens and stealing a little bit of time for you is massive, over on the Facebook group. And Maureen Johnson, I just need to gloat a little, because I started a movement.
Maureen: Whoa!
Dan: There are multiple people making yogurt, now, as part of their Says Who You. My yogurt making stories of yogurt, have inspired others, Maureen, to make yogurt of their own over on Says Who You.
Maureen: That's beautiful.
Dan: It is beautiful. I eat delicious homemade yogurt every day now, thanks to Says Who You. And you know what else people did? You know what else people did this weekend?
Maureen: What?
Dan: They got cozy under blankets. They cuddled up with their pets, and they wanted Let It Snow, Maureen.
Maureen: Ah, thank you guys. Hope you enjoyed it.
Dan: The Says Who Facebook was filled with people making hot chocolate and watching. We made waffles. Then we watched.
Maureen: Oh.
Dan: It was great.
Maureen: Did you enjoy it?
Dan: It was great.
Maureen: It's pretty funny, isn't it?
Dan: We loved it. All three of us. Me and Janice and the 14-year-old. We all loved it. It was great.
Maureen: Yeah, it has those-
Dan: It was funny.
Maureen: It has a lot of funny moments, yeah.
Dan: It was sweet. Yeah. I liked it.
Maureen: Doesn't suck.
Dan: I liked it a lot. Maureen Johnson's movie, Let It Snow out now on Netflix. If you need a good, heartwarming teen holiday thing that's funny and great and diverse and awesome, check it out.
Maureen: It's got a good chase scene in it.
Dan: And in just 10 days, you can join Maureen in Miami.
Maureen: Yep!
Dan: Florida! For the Miami Book Fair.
Maureen: I just ... Yeah. I just realized, I was like, "Oh, I'm going to Miami next week, aren't I?"
Dan: Yeah, you are.
Maureen: I don't know what's going on.
Dan: You are. Just like Will Smith.
Maureen: Again.
Dan: Anyway, spread the word. Subscribe and please leave stars and reviews on Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen. For real, it helps. People are leaving reviews, and we love it. Thank you so much. You can join us this Thursday afternoon for another episode of Says Who, a special post-impeachment hearing episode. And then next week, November 20th, for our next regular scheduled episode.
Maureen: And we'll find-
Dan: There's a lot of Says Who, Maureen.
Maureen: And we'll find out if Dan texts Rudy Giuliani or not.
Dan: I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it, I just need to lock down my shit a little bit before I do that.
Maureen: All right. Oh, Dan. Dan, you might even do it today. Dan! What if you do it today? Oh, my God, Dan.
Dan: I don't know that I'm going to do it today. You should see my to-do list today.
Maureen: Oh, please, like you're busy.
Dan: Have I told you that our four-year-old calls a to-do a do list? And I love it. That's actually, now, my better version.
Maureen: He's right. He's right.
Dan: It's not a to-do, it's just a do list. It's my do list. Every now and then, he sits down and makes a do list.
Maureen: Awe. Little guy.
Dan: Yeah.
Maureen: He's pretty cute.
Dan: He's a cute one.
Maureen: That little guy is cute.
Dan: He's very cute.
Maureen: He is adorable.
Dan: He's very cute.
Maureen: I've seen him, and I've done a little dance with him, so I know.
Dan: It's good. It's good. Look at that.
Maureen: All right.
Dan: It has been another hour.
Maureen: We've got a plan. We'll see you again on Thursday.
Dan: From my basement in Chicago ... Whoa, we're just going-
Maureen: From the-
Dan: We're just talking over each other.
Maureen: Oh, I'm excited.
Dan: This is it.
Maureen: I'm so excited.
Dan: Of how it works. You are. It's okay. This is good radio. This is why we should be producing Rudy Giuliani's podcast. This is what it would sound like, Maureen. It would be a lot of this:
Dan: Oh, hey. So how am I supposed to talk, again? Where do I ... What do I talk into? What part? Where do you ... Do you hear ... Where am I supposed to talk ... What am I supposed to be talking into? Where am I going to ... Hello, this is Rudy Giuliani. Welcome to my podcast. Is this all right? Am I in the mark now? This is Rudy's impeachmentcast with Rudy. Yes, Rudy Giuliani.
Maureen: I'm going to die. I'm going to die.
Dan: Following impeachment hearings, we learned that there is another lying fake news.
Maureen: Mr. Giuliani? Mr. Giuliani, sir?
Dan: Yes? Yes?
Maureen: Can you-
Dan: Is that-
Maureen: Mr. Giuliani?
Dan: Is that my co-host, Maureen Johnson?
Maureen: Can you move back a little bit from the mic?
Dan: Yes, why?
Maureen: Move back from the microphone, please.
Dan: Oh, yes. I'm so ... Is that good? Is it good now?
Maureen: Mr. Giuliani, can you come a little closer?
Dan: Can you hear me? Yeah. What? Oh, sure. I guess. Yeah, okay. Yeah, okay. How [inaudible] is that good?
Maureen: It's a like a ... There's a middle in there, Mr. Giuliani. Is there a-
Dan: Is there? Oh, I don't know what you mean.
Maureen: Mr. Giuliani, have you checked-
Dan: I think this is okay.
Maureen: Have you turned your phone off, sir? Sir?
Dan: What? No, I don't think I've got any text right now.
Maureen: Oh. Just please don't ask [inaudible] Mr. Giuliani?
Dan: Charles. I'm recording a podcast right now, Charles.
Maureen: Mr. Giuliani, please don't read your texts on the podcast.
Dan: This says, "Rudy, can you give me your password?" Yes!
Maureen: Mr. Giuliani, please don't say your password on the podcast.
Dan: It's NYC-
Maureen: No.
Dan: 69.
Maureen: Oh, God.
Dan: Damayor#1.
Maureen: Dan, I have another idea for you. I just had it.
Dan: What?
Maureen: Mayor Giuliani, the Twitter account.
Dan: No, that's old. That's old news. Man, can I tell you, Maureen, I have a little fuzzy thing on my mic, and now my mouth is full of little mic fuzz hairs. Sounds gross.
Maureen: We should go.
Dan: From my basement in Chicago, I am Dan Sinker.
Maureen: From Rudy Giuliani's house, I'm Maureen Johnson.
Dan: This has been Says Who.
Maureen: Oh, my God. Can we get a burner phone [inaudible]
Dan: Ah. It makes me really nervous.
Maureen: You're going to be fine.
Dan: I don't know why. I don't even know why. Well, I guess I do know why. I read about these fuckers every day.
Maureen: Yeah, but honestly, Dan ...
Dan: They're not bright guys.
Maureen: Things just got out of hand.