On this Says Who, we welcome back Helen Rosner, distinguished food writer, to talk about what we’re cooking and eating in quarantine.
Food. We all like it. We all eat it. We all have it served to us by a special military valet. So let's talk about food in lockdown with notable food writer and best person Helen Rosner.
Oh, but first, Dan and Maureen do a little run down of what’s going on in the White House. Unbelievably, after taking absolutely no precautions, COVID-19 has shown up in those hallowed halls. The President’s Diet Coke man has come down with it, and in response they are doing… nothing? Welcome to wild speculation about what the hell is going on!
And then we can get to grocery washing, pleasure eating, and how restaurants may ever reopen. It’s a feast!
Sit down, SaysWhovia! We set a place for you, and it’s all you can eat.
Dan:
This episode of Says Who is brought to you by you through your support of our Patreon at patreon.com/sayswho where every Sunday of quarantine for our $5 and up supporters, you get a quarantine special edition that goes up and it's me and Maureen talking about life under quarantine every week. There's really two Says Whos every week now, one here on Wednesdays and one in your ears on Sundays because we are stuck at home, patreon.com/sayswho.
Maureen:
Hey, listen, do you not know what time it is? Fine. Get a book, books are good. And if you want... Look, first of all, you should be getting all your books from independent bookstores like Book Moon, or any one of your local independent bookstores. Having said that, I'm just going to say this. So, I keep talking about my book Truly Devious, right?
Dan:
Yeah.
Maureen:
So, if you have Kindle Unlimited, it is going to be up on Kindle Unlimited any minute now.
Dan:
Darn.
Maureen:
It's on the way. So, I say this because if you have it, and you have a chance to read something for free, I'll be like, "Look, read it for free." You can totally read it for free. They're doing the thing because they're pumping some more books out on to Kindle Unlimited because a lot of people are at home reading. So, I was asked and I was like, "Absolutely, you can do that." So, if you have that and you want to check it out, it's going to be... I don't know what day it's going to be up, it could be right now or it could be a week from now, but it's coming, because I've seen the paperwork so I know it's happening. Books, get them from independent bookstores, but if you already paid for this one thing, then you can read it for free.
Dan:
And hey-
Maureen:
Hey.
Dan:
You need to cover your face-
Maureen:
You do-
Dan:
... when you're at the store, when you're out, where you're all over, just cover your face people. And you can do it with sayswho@merch, that is M-E-R-C-H.sayswhopodcast.com where you can buy your very own. These aren't bright guys and things got out of hand. Face covering, merch.sayswhopodcast.com. Also t-shirts and mugs and fanny packs, you want it, you got it, merch.sayswhopodcast.com.
Drive Thru Kid:
Oh, welcome to McDonald's, can I take your order please?
The Passenger:
Yeah, I'm going to need a... Hold on, let me take my mask off. I'm going to need a-
Drive Thru Kid:
Oh, no.
The Passenger:
... Diet Coke, burger, Filet-O-Fish [crosstalk 00:02:53].
Drive Thru Kid:
We sell all these things.
The Passenger:
Actually, I'll take two Filet-O-Fish, three cheeseburgers, Diet Coke-
Drive Thru Kid:
Okay, what size?
The Passenger:
Large.
Drive Thru Kid:
Okay.
The Passenger:
I'd like those Filet-O-Fish without the buns.
Drive Thru Kid:
Just the square?
The Passenger:
With whatever crap comes on it. Yep.
Drive Thru Kid:
Just okay, [inaudible 00:03:21] fish square with cheese.
The Passenger:
And some fries.
Drive Thru Kid:
Okay, large?
The Passenger:
Yep.
Drive Thru Kid:
Okay.
The Passenger:
Ketchup. Extra ketchup, just ketchup everything [crosstalk 00:03:32].
Drive Thru Kid:
Okay.
The Passenger:
Yep.
Drive Thru Kid:
You've been coming here for a long time and you've never actually ordered off the menu, is everything okay?
The Passenger:
I may need one more thing.
Drive Thru Kid:
Oh, no.
The Passenger:
I said fries, right?
Drive Thru Kid:
Yeah and ketchup-
The Passenger:
Ketchup, okay-
Drive Thru Kid:
You said all those things.
The Passenger:
I'm going to need someone to serve it.
Drive Thru Kid:
That's out of my jurisdictions. I can't leave the drive-through so-
The Passenger:
[crosstalk 00:04:06] give me the food, right?
Drive Thru Kid:
If you drive through, I will hand you the food or if you would like, I can place it in a contactless manner.
The Passenger:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). What if you came to The White House and you handed it over there?
Drive Thru Kid:
I don't think that, that's a place that I want to go because I've been looking at the news and it seems like you have a outbreak there.
The Passenger:
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, who told you that? We don't have an outbreak. [inaudible 00:04:45].
Drive Thru Kid:
It seems like-
The Passenger:
No.
Drive Thru Kid:
They've been some people that are quarantining now-
The Passenger:
No, no.
Drive Thru Kid:
And I just don't... I would rather stay here.
The Passenger:
We definitely do not have an outbreak. I think that's the first thing I want to kind of convey.
Drive Thru Kid:
Okay.
The Passenger:
Do some people have a cough? Yeah, some people have a cough. Are we all staring at each other with paranoid looks like people in a movie where people are getting murdered one by one and you're trying to figure out who the murderer is, the murderer could be any number of people, 1, 10, no one knows, all of them but you. No one knows. We definitely aren't feeling like that but we do have an opening for someone with experience in customer service [inaudible 00:05:36] be handing over Diet Cokes on demand, and I thought of you.
Drive Thru Kid:
I don't think that's a job that I am going to do.
The Passenger:
Disappointed? I mean, I understand. But under-
Drive Thru Kid:
It just seems very risky-
The Passenger:
... the authority of the War Powers Act, I can in fact, commandeer this McDonald's.
Drive Thru Kid:
Oh no.
The Passenger:
So, I'm going to come pull up and you can just hop in the trunk and I'll take you over.
Drive Thru Kid:
Oh, no.
The Passenger:
Just get in the trunk kid.
Dan:
Welcome to Says Who, the podcast that isn't a podcast.
Maureen:
I'm having a granola bar.
Dan:
Okay.
Maureen:
Yep.
Dan:
That was Maureen Johnson and I am Dan sinker.
Maureen:
Yep.
Dan:
You're just snacking.
Maureen:
I'm having a granola bar.
Dan:
It is snack time with Maureen and Dan.
Maureen:
You see-
Dan:
I just ate a Fun Size Snickers before we recorded.
Maureen:
Wow, sounds tasty.
Dan:
It really was. Our last grocery order, I put candy in it. It was a good decision.
Maureen:
Do you hear the dog?
Dan:
No.
Maureen:
That's right-
Dan:
I don't.
Maureen:
You don't hear the dog. You know why?
Dan:
Is this a sad story?
Maureen:
No, it's a happy story. She's downstairs playing with her best friend.
Dan:
Wait, how does that work?
Maureen:
We've set it up. So, we ride down on the elevator, I put her on the 15 foot leash, they know she's coming, they open the door, they unclip her from the leash, she runs into the apartment. When it's time to pick her up, they put her on a long leash and she runs out, and I unclip her, then I will take her home-
Dan:
Wow.
Maureen:
Yep.
Dan:
You have a contact list dog delivery.
Maureen:
Well, we just take her to the fifth floor.
Dan:
That's amazing-
Maureen:
But we've-
Dan:
That's innovation.
Maureen:
We've all been quarantining, none of us are going anywhere. And finally, we're like, we really need to get... We're trying to work and she is... The only bad habit she has developed [inaudible 00:08:10] is that, when she wakes up and wants to play, she nips to kind of go, "Hey, I'm awake now. Please play with me." She just needs to get more energy out than we... We're trying so hard, but she just has so much energy to burn.
Dan:
Yeah.
Maureen:
So, she goes down and she wrestles with her best friend, Bonnie, for four hours straight. And then she comes up, and she has a big jug of water and she eats her supper and then, she passes out happily snoring away. She loves it. She's so happy.
Dan:
Man. You've got to be able to get stuff done.
Maureen:
We get four hour breaks, so-
Dan:
That's amazing.
Maureen:
Today, Tuesdays, Dan, not only is it Says Who recording day, but on the little chart I put on the fridge, it's also the day I run around and quickly bleach the floors of the bathrooms and the kitchen.
Dan:
Oh, bleach day.
Maureen:
It's floor day. And then, I shove everything back in. So, we have a very kind of set routine of work stuff. But I also very, very quickly got out the power drill and put up a set of shelves that had fallen down the other day. So yeah, fell down in the middle of the night, scared the shit out of us. So, I pulled out the drill and I put that shit back up, because of the two of us, I'm the handy one. I do the... Yeah.
Dan:
There you go, you're drilling.
Maureen:
Oscar doesn't know shit about drills, I however own two. I went to theater school Dan, they make you drill.
Dan:
Yeah, it's part of theater school, drilling.
Maureen:
It's true. You have to build sets.
Dan:
What is that clanking? What is that?
Maureen:
That's my granola bar.
Dan:
How big is this granola? You've been eating this granola bar for 20 minutes.
Maureen:
It's tiny. I take very tiny bites, though. It's one of those [inaudible 00:10:07] It's about four inches long of that, maybe three, it's tiny. But Dan, what's been going on? Nothing?
Dan:
Nothing, staying in. What about you?
Maureen:
Still inside, Dan.
Dan:
Yap.
Maureen:
I have, I think, almost completely assimilated to this way of life.
Dan:
Oh, without a doubt, without a doubt. It is weird to think about a life that isn't this now.
Maureen:
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, no, I've had that realization several times. And I think, I have realized that because Oscar is working from home. I like having him around, that's nice. I like that a lot. And I'd like that to stay, the rest of it... But I'd like that part to stay. I do like it.
Dan:
I mean, I think that, bizarre, Twitter just today announced that their employees unless they have a reason to be in the office, like they are tending servers and things, that they are just going to keep work from home as the norm now. And I think that will begin to happen with more and more industries that can support it at least.
Maureen:
I mean, I would like our table back. We don't have a table.
Dan:
Yeah, you might need a change in location if it was long term. You might need a little bit more space.
Maureen:
Nay. But then, are all workplaces going well?
Dan:
Well, Maureen, it just so happens-
Maureen:
That's a good-
Dan:
[crosstalk 00:11:53] that there's one workplace-
Maureen:
Tell me.
Dan:
... not doing so well right now. The White House, Maureen, has come down with a case of the old coronavirus, in fact more than one. Last Thursday, it was announced that the valet for the president specifically, the valet on the other end of his Diet Coke button, which he can push and then be brought a Diet Coke tested positive for COVID-19 after quote, exhibiting symptoms at the White House. The very next day Katie Miller, Vice President Pence's press secretary and new bride to racist Stephen Miller, tested positive and multiple people were taken off a plane on route to Iowa with the vice president due to her being positive. The Vice President did not get off, he continued the trip to Iowa. And now the governor of Iowa is in quarantine because she was exposed to the Vice President of the United States. It's like a game of werewolf at the White House now Maureen, who's infected and who's a villager?
Maureen:
I mean, I have a lot of thoughts about this. And I will admit that this is the reason I grab my phone now the minute I wake up, is I really want to see if there have been any updates on this one, because-
Dan:
Yeah, I've been looking all day there haven't been.
Maureen:
The whole point of this thing is that it's so catchy. It's so catchy. It's the catchiest thing, which is why we're all in quarantine. And if it goddamn went to the White House and [inaudible 00:13:59] These people escape, I'll be so mad.
Dan:
Yeah. So, South Korea, speaking of places that have done this far better than us. South Korea has done a remarkable job of keeping COVID relatively under control. And has actually gotten to the point where they are reopening parts of society again, and they opened bars and restaurants in Seoul. And four days after doing so, they shut them down again, because there's a cluster of cases that have popped up. And because they also do really good contact tracing there, they have discovered that one guy went to three different bars in one night in Seoul, and at least 40 new cases are linked directly back to him and those three bars. Now, imagine Maureen, if instead of it being a bunch of bars in South Korea, it is the small weird cramped offices of the West Wing.
Maureen:
Yeah, I guess that's one of the things is that, the White House is apparently, not very glamorous on the inside, just kind of a cramped, weird building.
Dan:
Yeah, well, I mean, think about it, right? You can picture the White House in your head. There's not an office tower sitting next to it that they added in 1965, right? They just subdivide and subdivide and subdivide to fit all the various people into it that they need to fit into it. Every person I've ever talked to that has worked at the White House, either in a press capacity or another capacity, they're like, "Yeah, it's really weird and gross in there."
Maureen:
Seems that... I bet it smells like weird old coffee pods and microwaved lunches all the time.
Dan:
I kind of imagined that the White House smell Like an antique store, kind of like musty, moldy old wood and stuff kind of smell, I would guess that, that coupled with a gym locker, is exactly what I imagine the office complex in there smells like.
Maureen:
Printer toner in there.
Dan:
Yeah, definitely.
Maureen:
Kind of hot printer smell. Hot printer smell.
Dan:
Maureen, I love the smell of a hot printer. I love it a lot.
Maureen:
I do. I know. We all know-
Dan:
I love it a lot.
Maureen:
We all know.
Dan:
I really do. Kevin Hassett who's a top economic adviser to the President was on the CBS Sunday News Show and said that quote, it is scary to go to work. Now, this guy was in the news prior to this outbreak because he was responsible for creating what the White House was referring to their model of the infection, that Kevin Hassett had created where the model predicted that we would be done with Coronavirus in mid May. And they had just created this, and a few different people that work with data were like, "This is..." They called it a cubic model, which is not a thing. And a few different people were like, there's a preset in Excel called Cubic, what if I take some of this data and run it through, and then they discovered that all that he had done was run a preset in Microsoft Excel to create a bell curve, and then they were basing things on it. So, Kevin Hassett who, early last week, was confident that this whole thing was going to pass in just mere days is now afraid to go to work at the White House.
Maureen:
Dan, I just caught myself staring. I just started just staring deeply into the wall like I could burn a hole through it.
Dan:
These are people that want everyone to go back to work.
Maureen:
Dan, by this time next week, how many cases do you think are coming out of the White House?
Dan:
I think the real question is, by this time next week, will we know?
Maureen:
Yeah.
Dan:
Stephen Miller's wife, tested positive, and I have been able to locate no report on whether or not he is quarantining.
Maureen:
It's also not a one time thing. It's not like, if this happens, then this is it. This is just a one time chance for it to blow through White House. Now, the whole point of the pandemic is that it just keeps rolling if you don't do anything, so it just keeps rolling through.
Dan:
Well, Trump basically, when the valet was tested positive, he was basically like, "See, this is the problem with tests, because you test someone one day and they're negative, and then I don't know something happens, and then they're positive." It's like-
Maureen:
Jesus Christ.
Dan:
You don't understand how this works, do you?
Maureen:
No, he doesn't know how anything works.
Dan:
They are implementing policies at the White House right now that I am legitimately shocked were not already in place. People close to the President were only being tested weekly. Now, there's a larger conversation we had about the fact that we are testing almost nobody in this country even though testing has stepped up and everything like that, and all of that, but one would expect that the White House, the center of power in the United States and, at least up until recently, one of the most important places in the world, that they would be testing quite vigorously and regularly, and they were only testing weekly.
Dan:
They are now upping that to people close to the president or the vice president are being tested daily. They are only now putting a policy of masks in place, though it is only for outside, in the grounds of the White House, there is no official policy for inside. And obviously, the President and the Vice President don't wear masks even though there's a policy. It does feel to me like the White House is now a little microcosm of everything that went wrong, in that they are implementing policies way past the point, clearly there's community transmission happening within those walls.
Maureen:
I'm not being funny, Dan, but do these genuinely seem like people who can't, I don't know, read, get confused by the instructions on the bottle of shampoo. I mean, it's like they don't understand the most basic... I'm running out of words Dan, for example, wearing a mask outside as opposed to inside, it's like the opposite of everything. And I don't understand, Dan. I don't understand. Dan, Dan, I don't understand.
Dan:
Maureen, you are the one that has said it more than anyone, these aren't bright guys-
Maureen:
Right.
Dan:
And things got out of hand.
Maureen:
I know, and I know that. I know, I know that. But I think I thought that even the dumbest guys had a sense of self preservation and some sort of motor neuron level who just could sort of, at some really simple level, could manage not to slam their own dick in the door. You know what I mean?
Dan:
I mean, I think that there's an open question as to whether Donald Trump truly believes that he will never die. So, there's that.
Maureen:
I think he's scared shitless. I think he's shitting bricks. I think he's shitting-
Dan:
Oh, he's definitely shitting bricks.
Maureen:
Yeah.
Dan:
This is a known germophobe. Interesting Donald Trump trivia that I did not know, Maureen Johnson, is that his grandfather died in the Spanish Flu outbreak of 1918. And that the insurance settlement that his grandmother received is what started them buying real estate.
Maureen:
Well, Dan, I'm going to use that to tie into another fact about something that's happening right now because, coming from my world, the YA world, Midnight Sun, which is the Twilight Saga as told from Edwards point of view... Twilight was told from the point of view of Bella, Midnight Sun is the same events told from the point of view of Edward. Now she wrote this a long time ago and was going to put it out, and then somebody got it and leaked it. So, she pulled the whole project, but Stephenie Meyer has decided to put it out and she's going to put out in August. And you think this isn't relevant, right? But here's the thing. Edward died in the Spanish Flu pandemic in 1918.
Dan:
Oh, comes back.
Maureen:
It all comes back. It all comes back.
Dan:
Well, is Edward a vampire or a werewolf? I don't know, I've never read those books.
Maureen:
He's a vampire.
Dan:
What if he was actually Donald Trump's grandfather?
Maureen:
No, I'm pretty sure Edward's not a... I mean, who knows? I assume that Donald Trump's grandfather was some sort of proto-Nazi.
Dan:
Well, tomato-tomato, it's a vampire.
Maureen:
I think I'm rather with the vampire... I'm always... I don't want to side with anybody over Nazis [crosstalk 00:24:37].
Dan:
They've an unceasing hunger for human blood.
Maureen:
Not Edward. He's all right. Edward is fine. That's the whole point, is that he controls it. They're vegetarian vampires.
Dan:
Maureen Johnson.
Maureen:
Dan, can we have a special episode where I just watch the Twilight movies with you, and talk [crosstalk 00:25:05].
Dan:
Yes. Oh, boy. Yes.
Maureen:
Maybe-
Dan:
Twilight [inaudible 00:25:09] with Maureen and Dan.
Maureen:
I think not even the first three, just-
Dan:
Wait, there are more than three?
Maureen:
There are five.
Dan:
Wow.
Maureen:
There are five.
Dan:
Movies?
Maureen:
Yeah.
Dan:
There are five Twilight movies.
Maureen:
Yes, because there are four Twilight books but they made the last one into two movies. And I don't know-
Dan:
Yeah, that was a real moment in time, wasn't it? There was just a moment in time where every final movie in a multi movie series was split into two-
Maureen:
Was two. Yeah. I don't think I'm going to be insulting anybody if I say that Breaking Dawn parts one and two... No shit on anybody, what they love, whatever, but those movies, that's some of the craziest shit you're ever going to see. You'd have no idea, Dan. You don't know.
Dan:
I promise you that I don't.
Maureen:
Oh, Dan-
Dan:
I know that we have established before through our now long running game of friends or dark friends that there are vast swaths of popular culture that have passed me by. And the Twilight series is 100% one of them.
Maureen:
Dan, there's so much material here for us to mine. Yeah, Breaking Dawn is a... It's a hell of a read. It is a hell of a read. But the movies are just... Dan, have you ever seen a grown man fall in love with a baby?
Dan:
[inaudible 00:26:55] Wait, like romantic love and not just sort of the love of a parent?
Maureen:
No, no. You want to date that baby.
Dan:
Oh, no. Oh no. What? What?
Maureen:
And that Dan, is just one of many thousands of points of light. We have so much ground to cover.
Dan:
I'm in, but Maureen Johnson word of coronavirus in the White House, potentially spread by Donald Trump's Diet Coke valet means that we need to put up the Helen Rosner symbol and get her over here so we can talk Trump and food and quarantine. So, Maureen, when it was announced that the President's Diet Coke valet had tested positive you DM-ed to me almost immediately in all caps saying, "Let's get Helen." And I was in the process of writing a DM to you that said, "We should get Helen."
Maureen:
Yeah. It's been too long.
Dan:
And so, today, we have gotten Helen Rosner, food writer, Instagram recipe influencer, friend of the show who has been with us since good Lord, what? The very first Thanksgiving of this, lo those many years ago.
Maureen:
Three and a half year project.
Dan:
Yeah. She has joined us many a time to talk about Trump's dietary needs and what they tell us about Donald Trump, and that need could not possibly be more relevant than right now when Diet Coke may in fact be his undoing. Helen, Hello.
Helen Rosner:
Hi. Hello. Hello.
Dan:
How are you?
Helen Rosner:
Hello Dan.
Dan:
How are you quarantining?
Helen Rosner:
Hi Maureen. I'm great. I have no children and already mostly worked from home, and like my apartment and like my spouse and so, I have no grounds to complain about anything.
Maureen:
You have a dog, though.
Helen Rosner:
I'm doing okay. And I have a dog, and she's lovely. And I'm great. I feel terrible saying that I'm great, but I'm not happy that the world is falling apart, but I am currently suffering way less than a lot of people and I am owning that fact.
Maureen:
I think it's okay to say, that we're... If you're okay, I don't think that, that should be a bad thing.
Helen Rosner:
It's funny, in a very sort of presidential manner, I have been rolling calls today. And I'm talking to you mere minutes after getting off of a FaceTime with my therapist. And that was one of the things we were talking about, was like, is it okay to not be collapsing in misery and anxiety every single second of the day? And the answer is, of course, it's okay. If I experience happiness for a few minutes, it doesn't make the coronavirus win. It's weird stuff.
Maureen:
Yeah, that's a good thing. And obviously, as we're going to talk about, cooking.
Helen Rosner:
Yeah. Oh my god.
Maureen:
Right?
Helen Rosner:
I'm cooking so much and I'm like... Sometimes, it's horrible and I hate it because I'm cooking so much, and then sometimes, it's beautiful and I love it. Oh my god, I have so many thoughts. It's going to be awesome. This is going to be such a delightful narcissistic segment. I can't wait.
Maureen:
It's great.
Dan:
But before we get to cooking, let's discuss the news of the moment, which is that Donald Trump's Diet Coke valet... He has a button on the Resolute Desk that he can hit, and then a guy comes with a Diet Coke for him, that guy... He's actually one of three guys apparently, but one of those three has not only tested positive for COVID but was tested because he was exhibiting symptoms at the White House.
Helen Rosner:
In the Oval Office, right? Was that the news, he was in the Oval Office? And-
Dan:
I believe so.
Helen Rosner:
He was on Diet Coke duty. So, I've been thinking about this and I suspect, Dan, that you and Maureen have read more about this than I have, the specifics of the Diet Coke valet. The question that I have is, how does the Diet Coke reach him? Is it in a glass? Is it in a can? Has the can already been opened? How much of the actual liquid is exposed to the valet's mucous membranes?
Maureen:
That's a very good question.
Dan:
My god, I do not have an answer but I have fought through this as well. And I would guess that it is a airplane style delivery. So-
Maureen:
That is exactly-
Dan:
There would be [crosstalk 00:32:48] glass with ice and an opened can, and the can would absolutely be left.
Helen Rosner:
But the end was opened-
Dan:
Yes.
Helen Rosner:
That's the question.
Dan:
And I would think the Diet Coke would be poured by the valet.
Helen Rosner:
Okay. Because this is something I was thinking about-
Maureen:
It's speculation.
Helen Rosner:
And my mind was wondering in the last few minutes of therapy as I was gaming up for talking to you guys, I was thinking about, does he open his own cans? Because what we know about his sort of pathological germophobia would to me speak to him only wanting to open his own cans, but at the same time, his desire to be waited upon would speak to him wanting someone else to open the can for him.
Maureen:
I would guess that there's no can, that it comes in a glass with ice, because it looks classy-
Helen Rosner:
And no can is present at all.
Maureen:
Right.
Dan:
I mean, now that I think about it, I don't think that I have ever... I cannot place a picture of him in my mind where there is a can of Diet Coke in his visible presence.
Helen Rosner:
I feel like [crosstalk 00:34:01] I have a mental image of this but maybe I don't.
Maureen:
I think it's glasses. I think it comes in glasses. Because it's classy-
Helen Rosner:
[crosstalk 00:34:10]. The other person that comes to mind, of course, is Karl Lagerfeld, the late fashion designer, who also had a famous... I guess his habit was Coke Zero. But he also had a Diet Coke valet who would sort of stand discreetly behind him to the left of him and at the snap of a finger, because of course, he had no Resolute Desk with a button on it, Lagerfeld would be presented with the Diet Coke. And I think if I'm remembering correctly, it was always in an open can with a straw in it, or maybe it was a glass bottle with a straw in it, but a straw was involved. And no, I have seen pictures of Trump drinking out of a straw, but all of this is by way of speculating. If the Diet Coke valet is responsible for opening the can of Coke and that Coke valet has COVID, then there are-
Dan:
Hold on. I am looking at a photo where Donald Trump is sitting, Kellyanne Conway is on his right, some white dude is on his left, and in front of him is a can of Diet Coke and a tall glass about half filled with ice. The Diet Coke I can see the pop top has been popped, but the-
Helen Rosner:
But who did it?
Dan:
This appears to be an A, as yet poured. There's sort of a brown slurry at the bottom of this cup so... And no straw.
Helen Rosner:
Fascinating.
Maureen:
All of this is to say though that the Diet Coke valet is really doing a lot more damage just by breathing. It's kind of [crosstalk 00:36:01].
Helen Rosner:
I mean, what are the surfaces involved here, right? The can is metal, the glasses is glass, those are the surfaces that are the most likely to be a happy home for the virus.
Dan:
Yeah.
Maureen:
Doorknobs.
Dan:
There would be condensation, so it would be wet, cooled, which is good for this virus. A cool surface is better than a particularly hot one.
Helen Rosner:
I mean, it's a beautiful environment. If you are the virus, you're just like, "Yes, I love it here. I would like to relax and replicate."
Maureen:
Now, this man brings him Diet Coke, but he probably does other stuff and [crosstalk 00:36:44].
Dan:
And apparently, he eats Diet Cokes and food, is his deal.
Maureen:
He's going in and out. He's breathing. He's leaning close to him. He's definitely touching all the doorknobs and surfaces that he's going to be touching.
Helen Rosner:
I mean, it's a shit-storm, right? This is... Yeah. I mean, it's amazing that... God they're all just such idiots.
Maureen:
They are.
Dan:
Because you know that his Diet Coke valet was not coming in masked.
Helen Rosner:
No, and-
Maureen:
Oh, no.
Helen Rosner:
It's so ridiculous, all these restaurants that are sort of pivoting to takeout and delivery over the last few weeks or months now, so many of them are making such an incredible effort to be as safe and compliant with safety regulations as possible. They're talking about how there are restaurants that are taking the temperature of every single staffer when they come in and every four hours during their shift. And that's just a place that's making pulled pork sandwiches for the people of whatever town, and the goddamn White House doesn't even have people wearing masks. It's absolute bananas that there is just better security at your average restaurant than there is at a sensible seat of power of the United States of America.
Maureen:
Can I ask a question? Because last night, Oscar and I had this... We ended up having this conversation for a surprisingly long time, and I don't want to... Just a quick... We were just trying to imagine when New York restaurants would actually be able to open again for people to go in and eat.
Helen Rosner:
I think that anybody who says that they have an answer for this is lying. If you watch the way that restaurant reopening have been happening in countries that have handled this outbreak efficiently and thoughtfully and with an incredible amount of control, like if you look at South Korea, they're sort of gradually reopening the various cities in China, restaurants are opening to partial capacity. I have a friend who lives in Hong Kong and his Instagram has been non stop recording of the partitions that are being put up in various restaurants. So, the counter seating at a noodle bar has plexiglass partitions that are now put up between each seat, and there are partitions around booths. Basically, everything is kind of creating little bubbles for people while they're eating.
Helen Rosner:
So, you either have to create physical space, so remove half the tables in your restaurant, or you have to create barriers to sort of be like windbreaks to stop the flow of transmission. And servers are wearing masks and cooks are wearing masks and hair nets and sort of the whole sanitation thing. So, that's what's happening in places that are taking this very seriously, right? In places that are a couple of months ahead of us in terms of transmission rates, and also in terms of the curve slowing down. The problem is that we don't live in South Korea, we don't live in China, we live in the United States where nobody who is actually in a position of power is taking this seriously, and you can't close state borders if you're a governor who does take it seriously, and [inaudible 00:39:56] governor who doesn't, because it's unconstitutional. So-
Maureen:
I don't have COVID, I'm coughing on water.
Helen Rosner:
So, who the fuck knows? Is the real answer. I mean, I think that the chefs and the restaurateurs that I've been talking to have been, I think, planning or at least anticipating reopening, or something that looks like reopening in the fall, but it depends on the restaurant, it depends on their relationship to their landlord. I'm sorry, this is such a long answer to what should in theory-
Dan:
No, it's good.
Helen Rosner:
... be a very easy question.
Maureen:
No, it's not easy at all. That's the thing because I don't think a lot of them can open to partial capacity.
Helen Rosner:
Well, they can't, right? Because [inaudible 00:40:38]. Yeah. And it becomes really fascinating, at least to me, because I'm a huge nerd, but the cascade of all of this is... I mean, it's very linear-
Dan:
I also don't have COVID but I'm-
Maureen:
Oh, no, Dan, Dan-
Helen Rosner:
Oh, my god.
Dan:
I suddenly got a very dry throat-
Maureen:
Oh, spreading through the podcast.
Helen Rosner:
No-
Maureen:
[crosstalk 00:40:58] save yourself.
Helen Rosner:
Should I cough too, so that I can be-
Maureen:
No.
Helen Rosner:
Okay. So, basically what it all comes down to, and I can't talk about this with any degree of... I think it would be bullshit for me to say that, I'm being super objective about all of this because I feel very passionate about this as a citizen of the United States and as a consumer of restaurants, and as a person who observes these things very closely, it all comes down to real estate. And if you have been watching the restaurant industry for any amount of time, you've known that in the last decade or two [inaudible 00:41:35] real estate prices are always climbing all the time because the economy always moves forward and blah, blah, blah, but the amount of operating costs for your average restaurant that goes to rent these days is so much higher than it ever, ever, ever has been.
Helen Rosner:
And restaurants have always been a really low margin business, but the proportion of that, that is now going to rent is astronomical and it's never ever been higher. And this is especially the case in New York because New York is a horror show when it comes to rents, and everything is about protecting landlords and nothing is about protecting tenants. So, basically, if a restaurant is going to survive this period of closure, or if it's doing takeout or turning into a grocery store this period of semi-closure, it all comes down to the relationship that they have with the building that the restaurant is located in. So, if you own your own building, great, you're totally set, you're going to be fine.
Helen Rosner:
If you have a good relationship with your landlord and they're suspending your rent, or they're helping you by only accepting a partial rent, or they're going to defer your rent but allow you to have a five or 10 year repayment on it, you're in a good position. But if you are, I think, like the majority of restaurants in New York City and probably the majority of restaurants in the country, in a place where your landlord is just like, no pay your rent, that's what your lease says, you're still on the hook for thousands of dollars a month. And that's what's going [inaudible 00:43:00] people, is either not being able to make their rent right now, or when they finally reopen, only making enough money to cover a portion of what they used to make, or being on the hook for tremendous amount of deferred rent. I mean, it's a fucking nightmare.
Helen Rosner:
And basically, what it all comes down to is unless at the federal level and at the state level, the government enforces, requires basically pausing rents and pausing mortgages, because they go hand in hand, and saying, "Look, we're just putting everything on pause for three or four months." Which is what France did. It's what Italy did. It's the reason that a lot of these places survive from a business perspective.
Helen Rosner:
So, you don't have to pay rent and it's okay that you're not paying rent because your landlord doesn't have to pay their mortgage. And we're just going to call it a wash and extend the date on everybody's leases and mortgages by four months at the end of this. That's the way that people kind of get out of this alive and that's the way that we can start seeing a kind of reopening timeline that allows restaurants the on-ramp that they need to bring their staff back in and get their supply chains running again, and come up with new systems that makes sense for their own comfort and their customers' comfort. And it's just like, god, a million moving parts, but all of it comes down to this question of paying rent.
Dan:
Yeah. And yet here we are halfway through yet another month and that's not even on the fucking drawing board, most places or anywhere, as far as I know.
Helen Rosner:
Which is totally ludicrous.
Dan:
Yeah. So, I have to say that every time I am on my back porch cleaning my groceries, I think about you, Helen, because you had one of the earliest articles that I read. And I pulled it up, it was published on Valentine's Day, where you talked to a couple that are living in China, and you will talk to them about their kind of food routine under lockdown. And they described cleaning their groceries, and I remember reading it and being like, "This is wild. Wow, we're never going to be able to do that here." And then, I think about it every time that I am Lysol wiping a box of Crackers and it's... I'm curious as someone that has actually been paying attention to this from a food lens for as long as you have, kind of, I'm curious about what your food protocols are.
Helen Rosner:
Yeah, well, it's funny. So, that article that you were talking about, I spoke to this couple living in Shunde, in China, and like a lot of people, their apartment has a small balcony, and I've been... So, I live in Brooklyn and you live in Chicago, and Maureen is also in New York. But the thing that I was thinking about a ton after I did this interview with this couple, was how much the architecture of apartment living in the United States doesn't tend to include outdoor space for every single unit. And when you go to a lot of other countries, almost every apartment building has balconies for every single unit. Sometimes it's just a little space, enough room for a tiny table and a chair, and sometimes it's real terraces.
Helen Rosner:
But in New York City and lots of big cities, living in an apartment means that you don't have anything outdoors, and such an essential part of the routine of feeding themselves for this couple living in Shunde involved using their outdoor space as a kind of decontamination chamber both for themselves and for their groceries and for their mail, that I... It was a really eye opening thing for me. And I feel really lucky. So, I live in an apartment that has outdoor space, we have a terrace and it has a table and some chairs on it.
Helen Rosner:
So, for a long time at the beginning of this for many weeks, my routine was that we would get groceries delivered or we would bring groceries in. And with gloves, and sometimes with a mask, though usually just with gloves because I realized the mask was stupid, we'd bring everything right out to the table on the terrace, which we have kind of an oil cloth tablecloth on, a washable surface. And then, I would be wearing gloves. And I had this sort of large yellow tray, kind of like a Mother's Day breakfast kind of tray, and I would put that down, and I would also bring out a bunch of bowls and a bunch of Ziploc bags, large mixing bowl kind of things.
Helen Rosner:
And I had this whole routine where I'd have my Lysol and my Clorox wipes, and I'd go through everything, and I would open a package of chicken and dump it out into one of the bowls without touching the bowl, because the bowl was clean, and then I was contaminated and I'd throw the packaging away. And I'd do the same thing with produce, and I would wipe down anything that was in a plastic thing and I'd put it on the tray and then eventually, I'd go decontaminate and I'd pick up the clean tray and I pick up the clean bowls and bring them all back in. And I went through this incredibly involved process.
Helen Rosner:
I don't really do that anymore. It created a lot of anxiety, and I am not a scientist or a medical professional, and I don't really feel like I am equipped to read the viral transmission reports and understand exactly what they're saying, but I trust the people who do read them and interpret them and so, everything that I've been reading over the last few weeks have basically said, that things like cardboard and paper are not really transmitting it. You should be cautious about interacting with your mail but you don't need to run your mail through a Cleansing Ray or whatever.
Helen Rosner:
So, I've started being a little bit more chill about my groceries, I still use gloves to bring them in. When I go to the grocery store, which is very infrequent, I wear masks and gloves and things like that. And I'm still decontaminating things that are in plastic or in metal or in hard surfaces by kind of rubbing them down with a paper towel or a rag or something that's been in a bleach based cleanser. But I'm not individually washing every single apple with the same sort of like, scrub it till it bleeds mentality that I had been having before. I'm not being super laissez-faire about it, I'm being a lot more thoughtful. But I think that as long as you're being thoughtful, you're doing enough. You don't have to worry that this is going to come in through the box of Captain Crunch.
Dan:
And what about takeout and stuff?
Helen Rosner:
Yeah, it's a similar thing where... At first, the sort of guidance that we had been given was that, it's unlikely that this is spread through food and it's unlikely that it's spread through ingestion from food. But the kind of hard plastic containers that takeout comes in is exactly the kind of hard plastic that we've all read that the virus sort of really loves to hang out on. So, when I get takeout, we transfer it into our own containers, so I don't really... I definitely, will sort of do the dirt bag thing when I get takeout of like, I sit on my couch with the plastic container of Kung Pao chicken and I eat directly out of the container because that's what I do. And now, I don't do that anymore, right? And sometimes, it's nice to make it feel fancy, and I'm like, "Oh, look, I'm decanting this into a beautiful serving bowl."
Helen Rosner:
But it's also because I want to get the container either into the dishwasher or into the recycling bin as quickly as I can, because I don't know where the container has been. I worry about the safety of delivery drivers. But I think that from everything that I've read, and from everything that I understand about how this stuff works, we are far more of a danger to the delivery drivers than they are dangerous to us. It's all the other people that drivers are delivering to that make that such a risky thing. And so, as long as I'm being careful about myself and my family, and I'm maintaining appropriate distance from my delivery driver, and I feel like the more people who know that, the more we can help keep delivery drivers safe by doing zero contact deliveries and things like that, the safer it's going to be for all of us.
Maureen:
Yeah, when we get it, they just set it by the door. We never see each other, we kind of yell through the door, we go, "Thank you, have a goodnight."
Helen Rosner:
Exactly.
Maureen:
And then, we reach out, the Addams Family hand comes out when they're down the hall, and then you just see this disembodied hand drag the bag inside. That's us.
Helen Rosner:
Totally.
Dan:
So, I hate the question of when this is all over, because that is a very variable answer. But when we are at a point where movement is less limited than it is now, and comfort levels have returned and that sort of thing, what is your first meal? Assuming that you could fly, assuming that money was no object, what is your first genie-I'm-free meal?
Helen Rosner:
Oh, I don't think I've even been letting myself fantasize about this, which is very revealing and I should probably bring up in my next therapy session. I think, I don't care where it is. I just want to be at a big table with a lot of people, in a crowded space where the energy is good, and it's loud, and there's music, and you can tell that the people around you are having fun, and you have no idea who they are, and you just love that they're near you. And I don't know, man, I'm a good enough cook that if I'm really craving something, I can figure out how to make it, right? I can get the cravings taken care of, but it's the space and the mood and the feeling of being part of a moment, that is the thing that restaurants create for me, and bars and public parks and waiting in line at a fucking amusement park. I mean, all of this stuff is like the feeling of being part of the great celebratory stupid animalistic mass of humanity.
Helen Rosner:
So, I don't know. I don't really care. I mean, I guess, I don't have a deep fryer. Maybe I'll go somewhere with fried food, but yeah, I don't know. I just want to go somewhere where it feels really good and it feels really alive and you can be really happy without having to apologize for it.
Dan:
Yes, well, Helen, one day we will all be in that place together. And thank you so much for joining us this afternoon. This has been a wonderful conversation.
Helen Rosner:
Thank you for having me. It is always the most fun thing in the world, to talk with you. (silence).
Dan:
I like that Helen Rosner a lot.
Maureen:
I do too.
Dan:
She always makes me feel better and also hungry.
Maureen:
Yeah.
Dan:
That's all.
Maureen:
But Dan-
Dan:
That's all.
Maureen:
Did anything else happen this week? Anything else you want to bring up?
Dan:
Nothing.
Maureen:
Anything?
Dan:
Nope. I've been locked inside.
Maureen:
There's nothing else in the news you want to bring up?
Dan:
Nope.
Maureen:
I think there-
Dan:
Nope. No, there is not, nothing-
Maureen:
Dan-
Dan:
Zero things in the news.
Maureen:
Maybe one thing?
Dan:
Nope. Nothing. Nothing.
Maureen:
Giant holographic Joe Biden.
Dan:
God damn it.
Maureen:
Hey, it's me, I've been waiting this whole time. I've been sitting right here. Hi Dan.
Dan:
Hi, Amy Carter [inaudible 00:56:07]
Maureen:
How are you?
Dan:
I was good.
Maureen:
That's right, and now you're great.
Dan:
Now, I guess. Amy Carter [inaudible 00:56:19].
Maureen:
Yeah.
Dan:
Lis Smith, the campaign manager for Mayor Pete, if you remember him-
Maureen:
I remember.
Dan:
Gave an interview this week, where she floated ideas of how Joe Biden could be cool. One of them involved him doing a takeover on Fortnite, and the other involved a giant hologram of Joe Biden projected across the Grand Canyon.
Maureen:
Yeah, I want a big Joe Biden projected across my Grand Canyon, you know what I mean?
Dan:
Oh, no.
Maureen:
That's right.
Dan:
Oh god.
Maureen:
That's how much Joe there is.
Dan:
Oh god.
Maureen:
Can you imagine how big those balls would be? It's all I think about.
Dan:
I don't want to have this discussion.
Maureen:
Dan, if Joe Biden was projected across the Grand Canyon, do a math problem to figure out how big his balls would be, and you know what you'll come up with.
Dan:
Oh, it brings new meaning to carry the 1, doesn't it?
Maureen:
Oh, Dan, you're talking my language now. (singing). I forgot because I was thinking about big holographic Joe.
Dan:
Oh, god.
Maureen:
This year is amazing, best year ever. 2020 is my kind of year. All right, see you later. [inaudible 00:58:24].
Dan:
Oh, god.
Maureen:
Says Who was made possible by you through your support of our Patreon at patreon/sayswho.
Dan:
.com/sayswho, that's never been in the notes. There's always been a typo. But that's how much of a professional I am, Maureen, I just read it as if it was there and I never change it.
Maureen:
And if you're a member of our Town Watch, $5 a month [inaudible 00:58:55] you get a new quarantine special every Sunday that we're in lockdown.
Dan:
This Sunday, I think we'll be putting forward some excerpts from our conversation with Helen Rosner because you just heard it and it fit neatly into our normal show length, but we talked for an hour so we will be-
Maureen:
It just went on and on, it was so great, but yes. And-
Dan:
It was very great.
Maureen:
If you liked Friends or Dark Friends, and if you want to hear Friends or Dark Friends, you can always pop in for $5 and then pop back out again if you felt like it, but-
Dan:
It's true.
Maureen:
Because honestly, Friends or Dark Friends is still one of my favorite, and now I'm really thinking about, Dan and Maureen Watch Twilight Together, and it's pretty magical.
Dan:
I'm in. What else do I got to do?
Maureen:
You say you're in Dan, but I don't think you know the glory that you're... If we do this, it has to be a video component.
Dan:
I think that we could do... We would have Twilight in a window that we would share on Zoom and then, we would both be in Zoom-
Maureen:
Right.
Dan:
... watching Twilight together.
Maureen:
And then, other people could kind of maybe start at the same time if they wanted to.
Dan:
Yeah. Yeah. Like the Wizard of Oz in that Pink Floyd record.
Maureen:
But I think it has to be... Because there's no way I'm going to get you to watch all five movies, and you don't want to either-
Dan:
I still can't believe there are five movies.
Maureen:
I can talk you through the plot, I can give you the kind of synopsis of the deal. And the only part I would insist you watch of the first movie is the Vampire Baseball scene.
Dan:
Excuse me.
Maureen:
Oh, Dan, that's three minutes, you should absolutely watch right now. When you get off this recording, I want you to Google Twilight Vampire Baseball and you will get a three minute clip, because it's a musical sequence. It's [inaudible 01:01:06] Supermassive Black Hole by Muse, so it's the length of that song. And it will tell you everything you need to know about the tone of movie one. But movie one is such a far cry from movies four and five. I mean, we're very, very far apart at this point. We would start with four, for sure.
Dan:
Well, that is certainly something to look forward to. If you're a member of our Town Watch, $5 a month at patreon.com/sayswho. Our theme music is performed by Ted Leo, support musicians during this time, buy records, buy Ted. Our logo is designed by Darth, we love you Darth. You can contact us @sayswhopodcast on Twitter, you can email @hey, that is H-E-Y@sayswhopodcast.com. You can join the discussion on Facebook at /group/sayswhovians. The Facebook group continues to be just a really wonderful, amazing and very supportive place right now while everyone is inside or having to work jobs that force them to be outside and everyone is... It is amazing.
Dan:
Our Facebook group is moderated by Janice Dillard. You can spread the word, subscribe and please leave stars and reviews on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen. This is my weekly reminder that podcast listening is still in a weird spot. And one of the best ways you can support a podcast whether it's this one or another one that you love, especially if you are not listening as frequently as you used to, leave a review because it helps a bunch. You can join us next Wednesday, that's May 20, somehow the month of May is going fast, for our next episode. And also on Sundays on patreon.com/sayswho for quarantine specials. From my basement in Chicago, I am Dan Sinker.
Maureen:
And from my vampire baseball field, I'm Maureen Johnson.
Dan:
And this has been Says Who. You're making up the falling in love with the baby part, right?
Maureen:
Nope.
Dan:
A baby? Is it like a Benjamin Button thing? Is it really a old person that looks like a baby?
Maureen:
Nope.
Dan:
It's just a baby.
Maureen:
It's just a baby.
Dan:
So, he's like, "That's a hot baby. I want to get with that baby."
Maureen:
Dan it's... We'll get there.
Dan:
Oh, boy, I don't know if I want to.
Maureen:
You want to.
Dan:
I don't.