Says Who?


Episode Summary

Three years after Dan and Maureen agreed to do something for eight weeks, this deranged carnival rages on. It's the Says Who Third Anniversary Show!

Episode Notes

Well, well, well. Here we are. Three years after Dan and Maureen agreed to do something for eight weeks, this deranged carnival rages on. It's the Says Who Third Anniversary Show! And, like she does on each anniversary, Ana Marie Cox returns to see how far we've come.

How far is that, exactly? Bret Kavenaugh is back, and so is Sean Spicer. You know what? Forget it. Just forget it. You don't want to know what happened this week.

Except for some stuff about lightbulbs.

Let's just talk to Ana instead, about hope, learning, moving on, and moving forward. With any luck, we won't be having this discussion next year.

Episode Transcription

Ep 104_mixdown

Maureen Johnson: [00:00:00] Says Who is brought to you by you. That's right you. We are entirely listener supported.

Dan Sinker: You.

Maureen Johnson: And proudly... That's right you.

Dan Sinker: Yeah.

Maureen Johnson: Proudly so, we, uh, we appreciate the hell out of everything you do. If you would like to support us, you can go to, donate-

Dan Sinker: Uh-huh [affirmative].

Maureen Johnson: Any amount of money. Uh, a dollar, a Bitcoin, uh, a wooden nickel, a, um, just a bag of potatoes, um, anything, we accept all currencies. And we will give you anything.

Dan Sinker: That seems.

Maureen Johnson: Um, if you bid enough, we'll give you Dan's house-

Dan Sinker: It seems like you're over promising.

Maureen Johnson: At $20 a month, um-

Dan Sinker: That's not right.

Maureen Johnson: Dan will give you tap dance lessons. For $35 a month, I will come, uh, whisper in your ear at night. So-

Dan Sinker: Oh, boy.

Maureen Johnson: Please go to [00:01:00] For, uh, for example, $5 a month, we post a lot of bonus content-

Dan Sinker: Oh.

Maureen Johnson: Including the upcoming ask doctors Amy says Carter, or Amy Carter's Shoe-

Dan Sinker: Yes, you, you nailed it-

Maureen Johnson: Where-

Dan Sinker: Good job.

Maureen Johnson: Where ... I'm trying to do the ad.

Dan Sinker: Yeah, you're doing great.

Maureen Johnson: says who. Shut, shut up, Dan.

Dan Sinker: Okay.

Maureen Johnson: Say Who is also brought to you by books. I'm Maureen Johnson, an author. I got books. Says Who loves reading. And, uh, I love reading, I love writing. Maybe you wanna read my books. Perhaps the Truly Devious series. You've gotta start at the beginning with this one. Gotta start with Truly Devious. You can't go in in the middle. I'm sorry. That's just the rules with this one. Some of the others, you can go in the middle-

Dan Sinker: That seems really complicated.

Maureen Johnson: Not this one. Look, just get, just get Truly Devious.

Dan Sinker: All right.

Maureen Johnson: Just je-... Goddammit, Dan.

Dan Sinker: That sounds good. You're doing great. Um, books.

Maureen Johnson: [00:02:00] Hi, Dan, good morning?

Dan Sinker: Oh, God.

Maureen Johnson: Round three of podcast-

Dan Sinker: Uh.

Maureen Johnson: Three of podcast. Except the coffee.

Dan Sinker: Oh.

Maureen Johnson: Oh, hmm.

Dan Sinker: I don't.

Maureen Johnson: Hmm. Hmm. Hmm-hmm-hmm.

Dan Sinker: I don't have-

Maureen Johnson: Hey Dan? How you-

Dan Sinker: Any coffee, Maureen.

Maureen Johnson: You don't have any coffee? But Dan, it's we're doing-

Dan Sinker: Oh God.

Maureen Johnson: Oh, we woke up early to do our, our-

Dan Sinker: Oh my God.

Maureen Johnson: Three-year podcast. Dan, how are you?

Dan Sinker: It is 6:30 in the morning in Los Angeles, where I am right now. And I think I might be dying.

Maureen Johnson: Why Dan?

Dan Sinker: I just seemed I'm, I'm, I'm very tired [laughs]. I, I am comically tired.

Maureen Johnson: Yeah?

Dan Sinker: Yeah.

Maureen Johnson: You're ready to do a podcast? Three-year anniversary special Dan-

Dan Sinker: Oh God.

Maureen Johnson: We've gotta be really upbeat. I've got all the musical notes right here.

Dan Sinker: Oh.

Maureen Johnson: I got the dance notes that says, "Oh, three years of Says Who."

Dan Sinker: Oh, can we just-

Maureen Johnson: "Here we go."

Dan Sinker: Can we just get through this?

Maureen Johnson: [inaudible] . Oh, no, [00:03:00] I got all your ... Did you learn your musical parts? Did you learn your song parts?

Dan Sinker: Oh, God.

Maureen Johnson: We do the harmony together? Three years-

Dan Sinker: I didn't, I didn't even look at the notes. What? What are you talking about?

Maureen Johnson: Three year-

Dan Sinker: I thought we were just gonna kinda phone this one in.

Maureen Johnson: Dan?

Dan Sinker: What?

Maureen Johnson: You can't phone in. First of all, we would never phone in any of these.

Dan Sinker: Oh.

Maureen Johnson: Second, you certainly can't phone in the three-year special.

Dan Sinker: I'm, but I'm very tired.

Maureen Johnson: That's the zeitgeists, Dan. You gotta get it together. You're a professional. Bring it. Let's go.

Dan Sinker: Oh. All right, let's go.

Maureen Johnson: Goddammit, Dan. [Laughs].

Dan Sinker: I am good. I'm good. Right, we got this. Let's do three years. Yay. Three years. Woo. [00:04:00] Welcome to Says who, the podcast that isn't a podcast.

Maureen Johnson: It's a coping strategy.

Dan Sinker: Oh, God.

Maureen Johnson: I'm Maureen Johnson.

Dan Sinker: Oh, no, you're still doing it. And I am [laughs] Dan Sinker.

Maureen Johnson: Hi, Dan.

Dan Sinker: [Laughs] Oh, no.

Maureen Johnson: Hi, it's Dan. Oh.

Dan Sinker: Oh.

Maureen Johnson: I feel good this morning. Don't you?

Dan Sinker: I don't. But you know what, I am happy to be talking to you so bright and early, Maureen. It is, it is our three-year anniversary.

Maureen Johnson: Hmm. Holy shit balls.

Dan Sinker: I, uh, I looked this up last night. Do you know what the traditional three-year anniversary gift is?

Maureen Johnson: Fire.

Dan Sinker: [Laughs]. No. It's leather.

Maureen Johnson: Oh.

Dan Sinker: Yeah. The wild, right?

Maureen Johnson: Ugh.

Dan Sinker: Yeah.

Maureen Johnson: What's the second year?

Dan Sinker: [00:05:00] Uh, knives. Fourth year is chain mail.

Maureen Johnson: Okay. Come on [laughs]. I really wanted it to be knives so bad.

Dan Sinker: [Laughs] That's ... Everyone loves knife year.

Maureen Johnson: [Laughs] Wait. You know what? We can do like a duet b- about leather. Give me my leather and my la- You know, do that. You wanna do that?

Dan Sinker: I don't know [crosstalk] . I don- uh, I don't know that song.

Maureen Johnson: It's this old. It's Stevie Nicks and somebody, the-

Dan Sinker: Yeah, see that. I, you, you hold up the Stevie, eh, Nicks end of this bargain, Maureen. I, I have no knowledge of, of Stevie Nicks.

Maureen Johnson: All right. Well, I'll gladly hold that up.

Dan Sinker: All right. Oh, boy. Maureen, I am in Los Angeles, California. It is 6:30 in the morning. And because I am dumb, I did not sleep last night. Not because I [00:06:00] was up living the California high life. Just because I have a bunch to do today, and so my brain was like, "Hey," you know, "Hey, hey, hey, are you asleep? Are you asleep? Are you asleep?" And I would be like, "No. Well, now I'm awake." And we go, "Did you know you have a bunch to do today?" And then I'd be like, "Yeah, that's why I'm trying to sleep." And it'd be like, "Oh, sorry." And then, two seconds later, it'd be like, "Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, are you awake?" Anyway, that was my night. How are you, Maureen?

Maureen Johnson: What are you doing in LA? Dan? What are you doing?

Dan Sinker: I'm doing some work at the University of Southern California.

Maureen Johnson: That sounds fancy.

Dan Sinker: It's, it's, it's fancy, Maur- I'm, I, Maureen, I'm very fancy.

Maureen Johnson: You are fancy, Dan.

Dan Sinker: Extremely.

Maureen Johnson: That's why we call you Fancy Dan.

Dan Sinker: That's exactly why I got the name Fancy Dan.

Maureen Johnson: Dan, you're not, you're not as chipper as [00:07:00] you could be. It also sounds like you're-

Dan Sinker: I, I, it is your miracle. I'm, I am pounding water. It's-

Maureen Johnson: I hear that.

Dan Sinker: Like I'm hung over, but I haven't had a drink in a long time.

Maureen Johnson: I'm taking a nice sip of coffee here, excellent.

Dan Sinker: Yeah. But, uh-

Maureen Johnson: Hmm.

Dan Sinker: Boy, I feel, I don't feel great, Maureen.

Maureen Johnson: Hmm.

Dan Sinker: But I, I feel like that's an appropriate metaphor-

Maureen Johnson: Right.

Dan Sinker: For a three-year anniversary show, for a show-

Maureen Johnson: Right.

Dan Sinker: That was supposed to last eight episodes.

Maureen Johnson: Right. Right, right, right.

Dan Sinker: Feeling very tired. Feeling like maybe you got run over by a vehicle-

Maureen Johnson: Hmm.

Dan Sinker: Without re- realizing it. It feels, it feels on-brand, Maureen.

Maureen Johnson: I like sleepy Dan, he's cuddly.

Dan Sinker: He's not. He's not.

Maureen Johnson: Oh, he is. He's like a little, a little beary. I poked him when he was in his-

Dan Sinker: Oh, God.

Maureen Johnson: In his cave, and he came out. He was like, "Ah, Oh, I why'd you wake me up from my hibernation.” He's all cuddly.

Dan Sinker: Oh.

Maureen Johnson: As I poke, [00:08:00] poke, poke. Yes. Poke the bear.

Dan Sinker: Oh God. You have poked the bear, but the bear-

Maureen Johnson: Oh.

Dan Sinker: Just wants to go back to sleep.

Maureen Johnson: Big cuddly Dan Sinker poke, poke, poke.

Dan Sinker: Oh, what about you Maureen? You seem like you are roaring and ready to go here. You are wide awake.

Maureen Johnson: I, hmm, I'm awake ish. I first of all, it's later here. It's 9:30.

Dan Sinker: That's true.

Maureen Johnson: It's, it's a luxurious 9:30 here.

Dan Sinker: This is early for us. Usually it's a few hours later at least.

Maureen Johnson: Right, right. Uh, I think that we really do our best work around 5:00 PM.

Dan Sinker: Yes. After a, after a good day of letting it stew.

Maureen Johnson: Just suck it in the news.

Dan Sinker: Yeah. It's like just-

Maureen Johnson: Really ju-

Dan Sinker: We're like the slow cooker podcasts.

Maureen Johnson: That's right. That's us, the Instapot. Um, I'm good. Well, I have some house guests which is lovely. Uh, so things are a little, uh, louder and more [00:09:00] happy here. This where you'll hear barking dog, uh, which is often a feature, but, uh, you know, still hear some people that she's being played with right now. So she's extremely happy.

Dan Sinker: Oh. There you go.

Maureen Johnson: But I almost didn't-

Dan Sinker: There you go.

Maureen Johnson: I almost didn't get here because she saw everything that made her happy this morning. I had to walk her right before I got on. One of our neighbors had locked herself out and was just sitting outside in the hallway when we opened the door.

Dan Sinker: Oh no [laughs].

Maureen Johnson: So every- everywhere I went, every door that opened and the elevator opened and the other than that woman's wife came out and she's like, I love you kid. Like everything was just like doors opening and just, it was like she was on the Price is Right and kept winning.

Dan Sinker: [Laughs].

Maureen Johnson: Just, just everything was just opening and she was just winning and winning. And then she got so excited that she came in and she was like, “Yeah, I'm going to get the mail and you're going to have to chase me.” And she was chase, chase, chase, chase, chase, chase, chase, chase so nobody is-

Dan Sinker: Maureen-

Maureen Johnson: Nobody is as happy as Dexy.

Dan Sinker: On the Price is Right-

Maureen Johnson: Yep.

Dan Sinker: When you [00:10:00] were a child and-

Maureen Johnson: Yeah.

Dan Sinker: Would watch game shows all summer, like me.

Maureen Johnson: Yeah, yeah.

Dan Sinker: What was the, what was the, what was the ga- the mini game on the Price is Right when it came on that you were like, “Oh, fuck yeah.” We're in for a-

Maureen Johnson: Yodeling man.

Dan Sinker: Yes, exactly.

Maureen Johnson: Yeah.

Dan Sinker: Everyone says Plinko, but it's the dude that climbs the mountain.

Maureen Johnson: It's the yodeling man. They, I don't know if they even still have that, but I hope they do. It was a, it was a game where, I don't even know what the, how you, how you played it, but it had a little guy, it appeared to be a figure of a little Alpine climber on a stick.

Dan Sinker: Yeah.

Maureen Johnson: It was very analog and he was climbing and if he reached the top, I think the game was over.

Dan Sinker: Right. There were little goats at the top.

Maureen Johnson: Little goats and they would play this like yodelie music. Like [inaudible] .

Dan Sinker: I think you had, I think as with everything with the Price is Right, you had to name a series of prices and then each price corresponded with the [00:11:00] height in the mountain and as he would, as the prices were revealed than whether you were right or not, he would climb to the-

Maureen Johnson: Yeah.

Dan Sinker: To the top.

Maureen Johnson: [inaudible] .

Dan Sinker: I love that yodeling guy.

Maureen Johnson: [inaudible] .

Dan Sinker: Maureen you mentioned the instant pot though.

Maureen Johnson: Yeah.

Dan Sinker: This is how my brain's gonna work now. I'm just going to be constantly pulling back references that only just hit the, hit the memory point, uh, because it's moving very slow in there. How has your Says Who You been going?

Maureen Johnson: It's been going very well Dan. Uh, first of all company, so that's been good. So I'm talking instead of looking.

Dan Sinker: Yeah, keeping away from that screen, but with the presence and love of other people. That's a good move.

Maureen Johnson: Right?

Dan Sinker: That's a good move.

Maureen Johnson: What about you?

Dan Sinker: I have continued my yogurt making-

Maureen Johnson: [Laughs] Dan how much?

Dan Sinker: Not here in Los Angeles. Can you imagine? Like attack the instant pot and I'm making in some, making [00:12:00] yogurt in the hotel.

Maureen Johnson: Dan, here's the thing about you that I wanna say is actually true, is that you're so kind of crafty and makery, that if you've told me that you had packed a mini ‘cause they have a smaller one, and if you told me-

Dan Sinker: No, whoa. I didn't know that.

Maureen Johnson: That you pass, well, they're not. It's not super small, but you could get it in a carry on. And if you told me that you'd packed a mini pot, although I don't think you're supposed to bring pressure cookers on planes, I think that they freak out if you do.

Dan Sinker: [Laughs] like what the fuck.

Maureen Johnson: I think they freak out if you do that.

Dan Sinker: Come on y'all. I just need to make some yogurt.

Maureen Johnson: Someone left an Instapot on the platform of the subway here and the police closed the station.

Dan Sinker: Yeah. It is a little bit disconcerting when I'm basically like, “Oh, I'm cooking with a bomb.”

Maureen Johnson: Yeah.

Dan Sinker: That that always does give me pause, but then, then I eat that tangy yogurt and, hmm, it's a good time. [00:13:00] That's been-

Maureen Johnson: I just would like-

Dan Sinker: That's been-

Maureen Johnson: I'd like to see you-

Dan Sinker: Broadly my Says Who You time.

Maureen Johnson: Bring in your Instapot. I gotta bring my Instapot, I'm making yogurt.

Dan Sinker: Exactly. It takes a while, plug it in in the, uh, plug it in on, in the plug between the seats, you could choose so it takes like 12 hours. Could get a long flight. Start it by the end of, by the, by the time you land in Australia, you've got yogurt. What if you bought a seat for your Instapot so it was next to you? Think they'd let none then.

Maureen Johnson: Yeah.

Dan Sinker: Look it, it's got its own seat. Just gonna make some yogurt.

Maureen Johnson: Yeah, they have to. They have to, if it's a ticketed Instapot they have to let ... It's, it, you have to say it's my emotional support Instapot.

Dan Sinker: [Laughs] it's true.

Maureen Johnson: [Laughs] It is.

Dan Sinker: Ah, it's true. Do you know how Says Whovians have been doing some emotional support though Maureen. They are on the Facebook [00:14:00] doing their Says Who You together and it is about the most damn inspiring thing that a guy can even conjure at 6:48 AM. They are doing stuff, they're posting pictures, they're cheering each other on. Says Whovians are the best.

Maureen Johnson: It's so true. In fact, we're going to read you a wonderful set. We have Says Who mail this morning.

Dan Sinker: Yogurt related. It is, it is, it is a mail that somehow manages to hit the center of the Venn diagram between yogurt and Brexit.

Maureen Johnson: This is an amazing message from Says Whovia. We've removed the name but we love you. Uh, we'd happily say your name if you wanted us to. Let us know. Good morning from the heart. Uh, we're doing drive time radio. Good morning from the heart of the Brexit nightmare. I work in Westminster. Uh, side note, Westminster just basically [00:15:00] means like working in the Capitol Building.

Dan Sinker: It's like, yeah, it's like you work in parliament.

Maureen Johnson: I work in Westminster and have been using promulgation to catch up on the last few weeks of Says Who while trying to restore some order to the office. After listening to Dan soothing yogurt talk this morning, I ended up queuing for lunch behind a grand Tory MP who was recently booted by Boris and I remembered a well buried memory from my early days here when never having met the man before, our eyes met across the yogurt shelf in the canteen and he recommended I switch to low fat.

Dan Sinker: Oh boy. [Laughs]. Oh God.

Maureen Johnson: That's much less weird than the Tory MP who followed me down a long corridor repeatedly asking what medication I just picked up from the chemist downstairs, having only previously spoken to me to tell me I looked unhappy. But I think both paint a picture of what this place is like in normal times and how [00:16:00] through several years of egotistical dick waving if ended up here. Thanks for the coping strategy and that signed just RJ.

Dan Sinker: Ha-ha. I love it. I love it. I love that somehow we hit that Venn diagram right in the center.

Maureen Johnson: Yeah. Uh, Brexit continues wonderfully Dan. Uh, this morning the case of promulgation is in front of the UK Supreme Court.

Dan Sinker: Oh boy. How's that gonna go?

Maureen Johnson: Uh, my entire knowledge of how it might go is based on reading of three news articles that say-

Dan Sinker: That's three more than me Maureen. Your basically-

Maureen Johnson: Probably.

Dan Sinker: An expert.

Maureen Johnson: Probably not well. Um, I don't know. I have no idea. I mean that's just the, that that was what those articles thought. I, I don't, I don't know. There's no cut. There doesn't, I haven't seen anything more than that. I was just sort of guess, [00:17:00] just if I was just feeling the wind, I would say probably not well, because that's always a good bet in 2019. How are things going to go?

Dan Sinker: Yeah.

Maureen Johnson: Probably not well.

Dan Sinker: Yeah, not well.

Maureen Johnson: And you're, you're gonna be, it's like you're doing one of those cold readings where you're like, I, is anyone here connected with someone with, I'm feeling the name and there's an M in the name and there's an E in the name. Is that anyone here in the room? So, um, we'll find out if they, uh, because one court in Scotland found that it was a, it was illegal and that he'd misled the queen.

Dan Sinker: Right.

Maureen Johnson: So we will see if the Supreme Court holds it up. Meanwhile, there is just, um, everything is now in a holding pattern. Um, but he did, uh, about two or three days ago, Boris Johnson compared himself to the, to the Hulk.

Dan Sinker: Hmm.

Maureen Johnson: So it was a quote somewhere along the lines of every time the UK does something, it makes me [00:18:00] angry. Hulk grows stronger.

Dan Sinker: Hmm.

Maureen Johnson: So that's where they're at with that.

Dan Sinker: It's a very, very basic reading of the Hulk, Maureen.

Maureen Johnson: Well, that was his quote.

Dan Sinker: Far more, far more multilayered than simply a, when he's mad, he gets strong.

Maureen Johnson: He just get stronger.

Dan Sinker: Come on. He's a deeply complex character.

Maureen Johnson: Tell that to Boris Johnson.

Dan Sinker: I don't want to.

Maureen Johnson: Well, I would understand that.

Dan Sinker: I really don't want to.

Maureen Johnson: Unsavory.

Dan Sinker: You know what Maureen, I don't wanna, I don't wanna do any of this new shit. I don't want it. Fucking Brexit sucks.

Maureen Johnson: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Dan Sinker: Fucking we are somehow reliving the fucking Kavanaugh shit nightmare again. I don't wanna deal with that one. Like we're gonna fucking maybe go to war with Iran. On a lighter note, you've got fucking Sean Spicer on Dancing with the Stars, which is the biggest amount of bullshittery I can imagine. It, this is supposed to be a celebration episode Maureen. Do we have to do the new shit?

Maureen Johnson: [00:19:00] I th- we have to at least one.

Dan Sinker: All right, I got one for you Maureen.

Maureen Johnson: All right.

Dan Sinker: I'm not gonna read the headline. The headline gives it all away.

Maureen Johnson: All right.

Dan Sinker: It's from the Guardian last Friday. It's been the subject of intense debate among late night comedians and Donald Trump's mainly online critics. Many online critics. Sorry, I can barely read. It's early.

Maureen Johnson: It's all right Dan.

Dan Sinker: Why in certain circumstances does the president of the United States sometimes appear orange? Now, Trump himself has come up with an answer and it's not one anyone was expecting. The problem apparently is energy efficient light bulbs. Talking before an audience of Republican legislatures in Baltimore on Thursday night, Trump gave a rambling speech in which he tackled criticism of his recent plans to weaken legislation on environment, on environmentally friendly bulbs. The [00:20:00] light bulb, the president began, people said, what's with the light bulb? And I said, here's the story. And I looked at it. The bulb that we're being forced to use, number one, to me, most importantly, the light's no good. I always look orange and so do you. The light is the worst.

Maureen Johnson: The light is the worst.

Dan Sinker: It's weird Maureen.

Maureen Johnson: Hmm.

Dan Sinker: Because I didn't realize that the sun had been replaced by led light bulbs because he looks just as orange outside as he does inside a bulb room. A bulb room. That's my brain. There you go, Maureen.

Maureen Johnson: Right.

Dan Sinker: My brain calls the indoors a bulb room.

Maureen Johnson: The, a bulb room, right.

Dan Sinker: Yeah. Yeah.

Maureen Johnson: Um, what, what about outside Dan where he still looks-

Dan Sinker: Great? Yeah, apparently that's, yeah.

Maureen Johnson: [00:21:00] And, and also in places like-

Dan Sinker: It's like-

Maureen Johnson: When he's in those kinds of grand ballrooms, giving speeches with other world leaders and Mar-a-Lago, his own properties, um, every photograph it's professionally lit. Uh-

Dan Sinker: He, Maureen, he has gotten to the point now where he is gas lighting about lighting. Oh no. Yeah.

Maureen Johnson: Dan-

Dan Sinker: What's that creaking door. It sounded like a murderer was coming in.

Maureen Johnson: I know it was the gaslight.

Dan Sinker: [Laughs].

Maureen Johnson: I'm fine, Dan. I'm fine. There was no door. What door?

Dan Sinker: No, no.

Maureen Johnson: What door?

Dan Sinker: I believe it. I will be hallucinating by the end of the day Maureen. Maureen we are, we are a long way from celebrating our three years together [00:22:00] and I think we need to get that celebration started again.

Maureen Johnson: All right.

Dan Sinker: I think we need to have our yearly visit by Ana Marie Cox, our very first guest ever on Says Who. She has now since joined us every year. Every year we wish that we would not be joined by her again because we wish that we were done, but we're not done Maureen.

Maureen Johnson: You know what this means, Dan? The first visit, she was ghost of Christmas past.

Dan Sinker: Oh no.

Maureen Johnson: The second visit she was the present. This time, she's the ghost of Christmas future.

Dan Sinker: I think, I think if we're going with this metaphor the very first, ‘cause this is technically the fourth time we have now talked to Ana Marie Cox. So the first time she would have been the ghost of [crosstalk] or [00:23:00] Bob Marley, I mean. Yeah, exactly.

Maureen Johnson: Not the ghost of-

Dan Sinker: Jacob Marley.

Maureen Johnson: Yeah. Not Bob Marley. If she was the ghost of Bob Marley-

Dan Sinker: [Laughs].

Maureen Johnson: That would be a lot more fun.

Dan Sinker: [Laughs]. Man, everything would have been different.

Maureen Johnson: There's a lot happening. Let's talk to Anna.

Dan Sinker: Let's talk. Ana Marie Cox.

Ana Marie Cox: [Laughs].

Dan Sinker: You're back again.

Ana Marie Cox: I guess we're all gonna, can we all start with a sigh. Like that's like the official greeting of the Trump era. [Laughs].

Maureen Johnson: Do you feel, do you have unexplained aches and pains?

Ana Marie Cox: Oh my God, I do.

Maureen Johnson: And just like a kind of backache and a neck ache and just kind of a constant, like ugh, I just can't get, I just can't-

Ana Marie Cox: Get, well-

Maureen Johnson: Comfortable.

Ana Marie Cox: I, I was, I'm wondering if you were gonna to use the word comfortable because, you know, this, oh God, [00:24:00] I hate the phrase silver lining. One of the things to come out of the Trump era that is helpful let's say is white people discovering discomfort.

Maureen Johnson: Hmm.

Ana Marie Cox: Yep.

Dan Sinker: Yeah.

Ana Marie Cox: Um, [laughs] yeah.

Dan Sinker: Like both said yep at exactly the same time.

Ana Marie Cox: Ye- yeah and exactly the same way. I mean, I, I think, and I think that a lot of white people are starting to realize that, that this thing that we feel, this constant threat of oppression, the sense that, um, our rights are, uh, not taken for, we can't take them for granted. I mean, that's how people of color and other non centered people have, have experienced politics, the United States for hundreds of years. And I think the, the best case scenario, you know, is that we white people, other people of privilege, uh, see the opportunity in that [00:25:00] for further community coalition, you know, fighting together and, and-

Maureen Johnson: Change.

Ana Marie Cox: Change and I mean, [laughs] it's their flashes of it I think. Um, I think climate change has started to, to feel like a, a, a coalition and I think that a lot of the, uh, gun control advocates have become more, uh, intersectional I guess is the word you have to use.

Dan Sinker: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Ana Marie Cox: That they realize I had a interview with Shannon Watts who started Moms Demand Action and one of the most fascinating things we talked about was her realization I think about a year into the project that there were a bunch of white suburban ladies talking about gun control as though school shootings were the most important problem.

Dan Sinker: Right.

Ana Marie Cox: Uh, and they're terrible, like we can all agree. Yes. They're terrible but they're not [00:26:00] the primary cause of gun deaths in the US. So, you know, they really changed their organization to be more representational and changed their focus which is awesome. You know.

Dan Sinker: Yeah.

Ana Marie Cox: That- that's, yeah that is great and that's a good change. So we're learning. Like that's, that's maybe if we, if I look back on the past three years, I think the most positive thing I can say is that some white people, not all of them and not even all progressives and liberals are starting to take advantage of the opportunities that discomfort allows.

Maureen Johnson: Right to evolve-

Ana Marie Cox: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Maureen Johnson: Be a better human.

Ana Marie Cox: Yeah. Yeah I think. I think so. I think some of us are on that path. Um, I don't know if that means anything for the 2020 election [laughs] but, you know, I guess we're not looking forward we're just looking back. What's, what, you know, Dan help me.

Dan Sinker: Let's, we can look in both directions.

Ana Marie Cox: [Laughs] okay.

Dan Sinker: [00:27:00] [Laughs] I, I think it's, I don't think we need to hold the future away and, uh, and yeah I think we can look in both directions. I'm curious, so we have talked to you, this is now the fourth time we have talked.

Maureen Johnson: Yeah, the first time-

Ana Marie Cox: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Maureen Johnson: Was we were looking, it was we were looking at the 2016 election at about eight weeks distance and we were like this is tough but hey, we just got to stick it out for a couple of more weeks.

Ana Marie Cox: [Laughs].

Maureen Johnson: We're learning a lot.

Ana Marie Cox: I know. I know. I know.

Maureen Johnson: We're so silly. We're such dumb people.

Dan Sinker: And last, and, and, you know, then the first year was kind of like holy shit well uh-

Maureen Johnson: We were nine months in, yeah.

Ana Marie Cox: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Dan Sinker: Sure this has got to wrap sometimes soon.

Ana Marie Cox: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Yeah.

Maureen Johnson: And then last year it was a little, it was a little dark.

Dan Sinker: Yeah.

Ana Marie Cox: Yeah. [Laughs].

Maureen Johnson: It was-

Dan Sinker: There was a lot of prepping going on when we talked last year.

Ana Marie Cox: Yeah, um-

Dan Sinker: And, and now here we are, [00:28:00] year three.

Ana Marie Cox: Here, here we are.

Maureen Johnson: We're like therapist that only talks to you once a year [laughing].

Ana Marie Cox: Um, so I was thinking about what I, I was thinking about this occasion and, and what I might have to offer and the first thing that came to mind was the fact that this and this is the honest to God truth. I still sometimes have that moment of oh my God. Donald Trump really is president.

Dan Sinker: Yeah.

Maureen Johnson: Oh, I have that a lot, yeah.

Dan Sinker: I still have that too.

Ana Marie Cox: [Laughs]. Like this buffoon from the TV is our president.

Maureen Johnson: Yeah.

Ana Marie Cox: And it's, ‘cause it's, it's and may, I don't know if that says something about me, uh, and, and maybe some kind of like privilege of like not having to think about it all the time or maybe it says something about, uh, my inability to accept reality but [00:29:00] it's so fucking crazy. Like i- in the end it's so crazy and yet it's all happening in this escalating way. It really, you know, we're all getting boiled alive and the, I mean-

Maureen Johnson: It's good. It's-

Ana Marie Cox: Alabama, Alabama, Alabam- I mean like I don't even, I don't-

Dan Sinker: [Laughs].

Ana Marie Cox: I, I, I don't want to talk about it.

Maureen Johnson: Right.

Ana Marie Cox: But [laughs].

Maureen Johnson: Can I talk as your, as your once yearly therapist, can I talk to you about it in a in a very, uh, nonclinical but-

Ana Marie Cox: [Laughs].

Maureen Johnson: Sweep- sweeping way.

Ana Marie Cox: Sure.

Maureen Johnson: Do you, what, uh, this is, what is, what is wrong with him?

Ana Marie Cox: [Laughs].

Maureen Johnson: â€˜Cause there's something wrong, like whether it's organic, environmental pressures the job that lean into the natural process of, of aging and stress and something. What, [00:30:00] what, what is wrong? Um, um, I know that you're not a doctor.

Ana Marie Cox: [Laughs]. So I mean I don't know, I don't know if I've mentioned this before but, um, my mom suffered from dementia before she died.

Maureen Johnson: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Ana Marie Cox: And so I'm just gonna talk about observable actions and behavior.

Maureen Johnson: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Dan Sinker: Yeah.

Ana Marie Cox: And there is, there are some things that, that Trump does that do remind me of her in the period where she was able to cover up her loss of function. She was super smart and I'm willing to believe that Trump ... ‘Cause especially if you look at old interviews like he's pretty smart actually. Like maybe not book smart obviously but he's quick and he's clever. And-

Dan Sinker: How, when you say old interviews how, how far back are you talking?

Ana Marie Cox: Like old. Like old. Like 80s I think. Yeah.

Dan Sinker: Okay. Yeah, yeah, totally. He can, he can put a sentence together that begins and ends in the same place.

Ana Marie Cox: And [00:31:00] is, uh, and is intere- I mean he's charismatic and, you know, he has a conversa-

Maureen Johnson: He was a game show host.

Ana Marie Cox: Right and he has a conversational skill. He's very co- has good conversational skills I would say in, in that period. And my mom was very smart and a wonderful conversationalist and when she started to lose her, you know, brain functions, her acuity, it took us a while to notice because she had kind of tricks to cover for herself and they included, tell me if these sound familiar but repetition.

Maureen Johnson: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Ana Marie Cox: Returning to things she was certain about all the time, like when she got lost in a sentence or conversation she just kind of bring it back around to something she was confident about. [Laughs].

Maureen Johnson: Yup.

Ana Marie Cox: And also she was paranoid and delusional.

Maureen Johnson: Yeah.

Ana Marie Cox: And not delusional, you know, and it I just, I mean I don't wanna talk too much about this but [00:32:00] I remember talking to her at the nursing home and she was able to be completely lucid but talk about like crazy stuff. You know, like she totally-

Dan Sinker: Yeah.

Maureen Johnson: Right.

Ana Marie Cox: Seemed like she was saying and making sense but she was talking about things that were not true. And that I see that in our, our president. Uh-

Dan Sinker: Yeah.

Maureen Johnson: Also fixations.

Ana Marie Cox: Yes.

Maureen Johnson: Inability to, to set something aside that's an absolute need to return to it and-

Ana Marie Cox: Yep. Yep. And this is like, you know, this was fairly early on. I mean obviously like one dementia is ongoing and it gets worse but and, and that's the thing about what's happening with Trump is that we should I think be trying to pay attention to decline. Um, ‘cause if it is an organic problem he's going to get worse. There is no-

Dan Sinker: Right.

Ana Marie Cox: Flat lining, you know, there is no stabilizing of, uh, [00:33:00] dementia disease. And here's the thing, he, he seems like he is getting worse. [Laughs].

Maureen Johnson: It's the stre- stress does not help with any process like that. That's not a-

Ana Marie Cox: Yeah and the, we, is, is, uh, the Alabama thing, you know, people talked about-

Dan Sinker: Fucking Alabama thing.

Ana Marie Cox: The, the people talked about how this summer he seems to have gone more crazy. And I don't like to u- I'm trying not to use the word crazy.

Maureen Johnson: Sure.

Ana Marie Cox: But maybe here it's actually appropriate. Um, but he seems to have gotten more extreme, more fixated, uh, a looser grip on, uh, I won't even use the word reality, a loser grip on everything. You know, like and just returning again and again to some of these same topics, these same phrases and also his behavior is, um, uh, unpredictable in even more extreme ways. Um, like this firing of Bolton, [00:34:00] like is whatever you feel like of Bolton, was destabilizing, let's say. Let's just put it that way [laughs]. And his reasoning for it seems to have been fairly impulsive and-

Dan Sinker: Weird. That doesn't sound like him at all.

Ana Marie Cox: Yeah, I know, I know. So what I mean I don't this is all talking about what's happening. I don't know what, what it means for the future besides he's completely, you know, suckered the entire Republican establishment and they're all on board for this. And so they will, it's a codependent relationship and-

Maureen Johnson: Do you think. Can I ask you a question there?

Ana Marie Cox: Okay.

Maureen Johnson: Do you think he's suckered them or do you think they can absolutely see the decline but they're just knowingly serving it, you know, like a mad king. That's what I think of a lot like a kind of one of these, you know, I talked [00:35:00] about, you know, a prince- the princess who thought she had a glass piano inside of her or the, the guy that keeps building, you know, castles that are based on Victorian aphorism. There are various kind of mental instabilities royalty has shown over the years and people are just kind of having to nod. So that's right. The, the, her majesty has swallowed a glass piano. Like just having-

Ana Marie Cox: I think-

Maureen Johnson: Having to be a cordial.

Ana Marie Cox: I, I think there's some of that but when I say suckered I also think of how you can't cheat an honest man and the reason it may be suckered isn't, isn't that they're naïve, it's that they've bought into something for the, what they think is going to be their own self enrichment or gain.

Dan Sinker: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Ana Marie Cox: And that is why they support him I think. it's funny I would all, I would all make the distinction between him and a king because I think to, to some extent the difference paid to royalty isn't completely self interested, you know.

Dan Sinker: Right.

Maureen Johnson: Yeah.

Ana Marie Cox: Um, there's some sense of loyalty to the [00:36:00] state perhaps or to an idea whereas I think that the loyalty, so called loyalty is not actually loyalty, you know, sh- shown to Trump is completely based on self interest. And that's-

Maureen Johnson: Right.

Ana Marie Cox: Why they're supporting him. And now what's what-

Maureen Johnson: But-

Ana Marie Cox: But it's still suckering in the sense that they're beguiled because they think this is gonna work out for them.

Dan Sinker: That's the thing that I don't understand. Is this many years in at this point, who is deluding themselves to think that they're going to get anything out of this other than ultimately humiliated when they finally leave?

Ana Marie Cox: [Laughs]. That's a good question. Um, I, I they're not looking at the, at the, at what's actually happened in the world, right? I mean Rick Wilson talks about this a lot when, when we speak which is that they just refuse to learn the lesson that's playing [00:37:00] out in front of them everyday which is he has no loyalty, he is comple- he I think enjoys fucking people over after they've been loyal to him.

Dan Sinker: Oh, without a doubt.

Ana Marie Cox: You know, like he takes great pleasure in betraying people. So and, and he's never follow through on a deal in his entire fucking life. He has never come through, whether you look at his marriages, uh, or you look at his actual businesses or you look at his relationships in general from what I can tell the man has no friends. Right? It's kind of-

Dan Sinker: Yeah.

Ana Marie Cox: He is a tragic figure on some level. I think he's a deeply unhappy person. Uh, a deeply insecure person.

Dan Sinker: Oh yeah.

Ana Marie Cox: I think he, I think he actually deep down hates himself, uh, or doesn't like maybe hate is strong word but, you know, I, I look at him and I see a [00:38:00] fellow child, a fellow, um, child of an alcoholic home and perhaps a dry drunk. I now other people have made that comparison but I see in him the same things that I kind of have experienced in my life and those are, those create a sad person. And, uh, I know it's, it's one of those sort of fake and pathetic things that's kind of funny to say like only, if only his father had loved him more like maybe we wouldn't be on the brink of, you know, total civil- civilization collapse [laughs] . But I do think if his father had loved him more [laughs] we wouldn't be on the break of civilization collapse.

Maureen Johnson: Right.

Ana Marie Cox: So-

Dan Sinker: So, so that's what's wrong with him.

Ana Marie Cox: Right.

Dan Sinker: What's wrong with us?

Ana Marie Cox: [Laughs].

Dan Sinker: That we can't fucking look away. How are we still looking at this with this level of granularity and this like oh my God? [00:39:00] Sometimes like the same, that same moment of occasionally just being like holy shit this dude is the fucking president like hits you. Like I get these moments of like holy fuck look at how far in this you are.

Ana Marie Cox: Yeah.

Maureen Johnson: Well, can I just say that as someone with a relative who behaves in this manner, like I have a close relative that has a very Trumpian behavioral profile.

Ana Marie Cox: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Maureen Johnson: You don't look away ‘cause you always wanna know what direction it's coming from next.

Ana Marie Cox: I do think that there is a certain self preservation instinct and paying attention. At least a little attention. I, I think there's also a- an unhealthy level of fascination with in terms of the news media.

Maureen Johnson: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Ana Marie Cox: I think I am for the abolishment of the White House press corps. I think I, Jay Rosen has put it send the interns and I think that's probably a good idea. I think that he benefits from the nitty-gritty soap opera style coverage of the ins and outs of the [00:40:00] administration. I think that to a certain extent-

Dan Sinker: Yeah.

Ana Marie Cox: We are, we would be better off as a country if we didn't know quite as much about his mental state. Like his policy changes are enough to upset us. They really are. Um, and those are things that we should be upset about and those are the things we can do something about. We can't change his mental decline. We have no, there is just no way. But in terms of the rollback of regulations, um, the disappearance of Obama Care, all of that there are things that people can do. At least, um, on a long-term level and, and more short-term on the state level.

And I, I wish that the news coverage of the administration focused more on the policies and the people that are being hurt by these policies. And that's what we all knew about and talked about and like clean water regulations [00:41:00] like, um, uh, you know, the abusive LGTBQ people. Um, that, that those are the things that we, we tied on the news every night. But, you know, we don't although, uh, okay so but a couple of things. So I don't think we can completely ignore it. I, even the mental decline part.

Dan Sinker: Right.

Ana Marie Cox: That we should probably be aware of it. But I also think the solution isn't to just try and ignore it or, or make ourselves pay attention to other things. It's connecting with our community, connecting with each other and maybe a little bit of forcing to talk about other things. Like make yourself read and other part of the paper besides the coverage of the White House. And make yourself say something about that to a friend or a neighbor and, and then oh, I may, I was gonna say the other, ‘cause the other problem is if we get too wrapped up in the soap opera and the drama we lose the will to do anything else ‘cause it seems so [00:42:00] unstoppable and inevitable. Um, so we kind of have to pay attention to other things so that we don't feel denialism that he generates.

Dan Sinker: Yeah. Yeah. I mean so one thing that we have been doing, uh, in the last few weeks, uh, on the podcast is, uh, we call it Says Who You and, uh, we have been talking about kind of just taking minimum of 15 minutes a day where you consciously put the screen down and do something else.

Ana Marie Cox: Hmm.

Dan Sinker: And I'm curious kind of what, when you put the screen down what do you do?

Ana Marie Cox: Well, I'm incredibly fortunate but also I did create my career to go on a certain direction. So in which so, so the confluence of what I wanted and what I've been able to do has been great which is that my day to day job, my day job of [00:43:00] being a podcaster host with friends like these means that my, uh, journalism is not tied to the news cycle and that's I think-

Dan Sinker: Yeah.

Ana Marie Cox: The first time in my life that's true. And it's incredibly freeing. I have gone days where I did not read the news, which isn't to say I didn't read public policy or read things that have to do with our state of our country but, you know, um, it means I get to read the books that the authors we have on the show, right? So tho- and those books often are, uh, intersect with the Trump era but they are about bigger ideas and, and more, um, more engaging topics. Like I just so last week I talked to Rachel Monroe who wrote a book about its called Savage Appetites and it's about the true crime phenomenon. And I was actually-

Dan Sinker: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Ana Marie Cox: Gonna [00:44:00] mention it a second ago because one of the things that comes out of her book is the idea that white women especially are engrai- in are engaged and engrossed in these true crime narratives because they are a manageable kind of chaos and manageable kind of fear. Uh, they happen to someone else. Um, they enable us to feel both like we're victims and we need to be protected but also ultimately that we have a hand in our own faith, which is a really privileged place to be and it makes you feel pretty good, you know, to be able to get the, the attention of being a victim but also not being a completely passive person.

Um, and I, and we both think that that and that desire is definitely a reaction to the Trump era and that feeling of overwhelming chaos and being totally at risk, um, and being made aware of your own privileged in a very like destabilizing way. Um, and so [00:45:00] that- that's what I get to do on a daily basis.

Maureen Johnson: I'm gonna read this book at once.

Ana Marie Cox: Oh it's so good. It's so good. Uh, and then I also so this week the guest was Avery Trufelman and she has a podcast, we talked about her podcast called Nice Try which is about Utopias.

Dan Sinker: Yeah.

Maureen Johnson: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Ana Marie Cox: And that definitely intersects with our current, you know, state of being because what is Make America Great Again but a call for a certain kind of utopia.

Dan Sinker: Right.

Ana Marie Cox: And indeed u- utopias don't exist right and, and utopia and it's a utopia because well, I don't need to probably explain it to you guys but that the great again plays the most Trumps supporters are thinking of never existed never will exist.

Dan Sinker: Right.

Ana Marie Cox: But they- they're pursuing it in any way and also we got to what I really think is a really interesting kind of conclusion. Of course I encourage people to listen to the podcast so but-

Maureen Johnson: It's a great pod- by the way if you're not listening to Ana Marie's podcast I don't understand ‘cause it's great [laughing].

Ana Marie Cox: [00:46:00] Yeah. And like what I love about it is what I'm talking about which is that I think it's helped me understand the Trump era without having to daily think about the fact that there is a crazy person in the White House. And again I use that word crazy pretty intentionally.

Dan Sinker: Yeah.

Ana Marie Cox: You know, as someone who has mental health issues myself, I don't wanna use it in a derogatory way but he's unstable as with an unstable person in the White-

Maureen Johnson: Yeah.

Dan Sinker: Yeah.

Ana Marie Cox: In the White House maybe that's an even-

Maureen Johnson: Well, you-

Ana Marie Cox: More accurate description.

Maureen Johnson: You can be unstable and that's fine but you can be unstable and have a bo- and have a base malignant person that like just be a malignant person.

Ana Marie Cox: Yeah, yeah. And-

Maureen Johnson: He is a malignant person and who has on top of that instability issues so.

Ana Marie Cox: Yes [laughs]. Right, that is and that is the, the, I mean not to be too blurb about it but that's what separates mass shooters from other people with mental health issues.

Dan Sinker: Right.

Ana Marie Cox: Right. It's not the mental [00:47:00] health, it's the malignant-

Maureen Johnson: Right.

Ana Marie Cox: Beliefs, it's, it's desire to hurt people and I do think mean I don't wanna get dragged back into this but, you know, some of the constants in his personality have been his sadism and his racism.

Dan Sinker: Oh definitely.

Ana Marie Cox: You know, he's a cruel person. Like just-

Dan Sinker: Yeah.

Ana Marie Cox: Astonishingly cruel.

Dan Sinker: Cruel and relish is in his cruelty.

Ana Marie Cox: Yeah and I ca- I don't know if we've elected another person like that. I honestly don't. I, I-

Maureen Johnson: Yeah he's a bru- he's a brutal, brutal person.

Ana Marie Cox: Like e- even Nixon was mainly who's probably the most analogous president that I can think of because he was so insecure and, and so paranoid, um-

Maureen Johnson: Had the villainous profile.

Ana Marie Cox: But also with a and also ultimately kind of sad and I feel like-

Maureen Johnson: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Ana Marie Cox: His vindictiveness was much more, um, [00:48:00] based on feeling on, on some accurate feelings of being wronged, whereas Trump isn't just acting out of being wrong, he's just a, a nasty person. Does that make sense?

Dan Sinker: Yeah.

Ana Marie Cox: Like-

Maureen Johnson: Yeah.

Dan Sinker: Yeah.

Ana Marie Cox: Nixon was mostly reacting whether it's perceived or accurate, he was reacting to the sense that people, um, had done him wrong, right?

Maureen Johnson: The, you know, the classic you're not gonna have Richard Nixon to kick around anymore just a-

Ana Marie Cox: Right ex- exactly whereas I think Trump would just be cruel even if he was trea- in fact we see this. Even if people treated him with total deference and completely sucked up to him, he would be cruel anyway. Whereas-

Dan Sinker: Yeah.

Ana Marie Cox: I, I think Nixon I mean may be pointless to speculate but his personality seems as though he did actually appreciate being treated well. You know, um, I, I, it is sort of scary to contemplate. I, I, I think I would prefer Nixon to be president right now. Like, [00:49:00] uh, at least he created the EPA [laughs] and there are some things that happened under Nixon that weren't horrible and-

Maureen Johnson: There's-

Ana Marie Cox: He wa- he wasn't as unstable either.

Maureen Johnson: You've, you've probably seen the Nixon speech that he gives to the, the resignation speech where he talks about everybody in the household and it's a surprisingly moving and-

Ana Marie Cox: Yeah.

Maureen Johnson: Heartfelt speech where he thanks everybody who cleaned the White House.

Ana Marie Cox: Yeah I ha- I actually, I've read it. I haven't heard it but-

Maureen Johnson: It's very moving.

Ana Marie Cox: I, if I can recommend I'm basing almost all of my commentary about him on Garry Wills, uh, Nixon Antagonists.

Maureen Johnson: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Ana Marie Cox: Which is one of the best political books ever written. It's a door stopper, like 500 page, uh, book collection of his reporting and essays about the Nixon era and it- it's incredibly sympathetic without being at all uns- unsparing. You [00:50:00] know, it's-

Dan Sinker: So Nixon's resignation speech is a perfect segue.

Ana Marie Cox: [Laughs].

Dan Sinker: Is there any chance in your mind that we don't interview you next year because he's gone?

Ana Marie Cox: Well, I mean any chances of, you know, um, nothing is impossible.

Dan Sinker: [Laughs].

Ana Marie Cox: You know, I'm a Christian so I believe all kinds of crazy things.

Dan Sinker: [Laughs].

Ana Marie Cox: Um, I believe in miracles so, you know.

Dan Sinker: [Laughs].

Ana Marie Cox: Like you're asking the wrong person. I believe like some dude rose from the dead. Uh, so like I mean-

Maureen Johnson: You have a great capacity to believe in grace.

Ana Marie Cox: [Laughs]. I do. I do and that's actually probably the more impo- that's what gets me through the fucking day. Um, but when I think about, you know, the chances that that Trump won't be in the White House, [00:51:00] I, I think is I can't, I, I feel bad saying this. I feel like it's almost more likely that he have some kind of health event that he be impeached.

Maureen Johnson: Yes.

Dan Sinker: Yeah. Ana Marie Cox.

Ana Marie Cox: Yes.

Dan Sinker: I want to, I want to believe in your belief of grace.

Ana Marie Cox: Hmm.

Dan Sinker: And hope that we don't speak next year.

Ana Marie Cox: I hope not.

Dan Sinker: You are the best worst interview we have.

Ana Marie Cox: Aw.

Dan Sinker: [Laughs].

Ana Marie Cox: Cute, this the bet worst show I'm on.

Dan Sinker: Oh yay.

Ana Marie Cox: [Laughs].

Maureen Johnson: And we say it in the best intentions, we hope not to talk to you again.

Dan Sinker: Yeah, we sure do.

Ana Marie Cox: I hope to like maybe we should like have a panel at a comic con. That's what we should do.

Dan Sinker: That sounds great.

Ana Marie Cox: That's, yeah.

Dan Sinker: We're there.

Ana Marie Cox: All right, but not for the show.

Dan Sinker: Let's do that.

Ana Marie Cox: Not for the show.

Dan Sinker: No.

Maureen Johnson: Right.

But if by chance we do, we will talk to you next year. [Laughs].

Ana Marie Cox: All right, we'll [00:52:00] talk next year no matter what. It's just a question of whether it's recorded for the show or not.

Dan Sinker: Perfect. Perfect.

Ana Marie Cox: All right.

Dan Sinker: Awesome. Thank you so much.

Ana Marie Cox: Thank you.

Dan Sinker: Maureen I think there is hardly anything that happens on a yearly basis that I end up, uh, loving and dreading all at the same time than our yearly conversation with Ana Marie Cox.

Maureen Johnson: You seem more chipper now though.

Dan Sinker: Well, you know, I- I've been up for a while, I've been talking feeling limber now.

Maureen Johnson: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Dan Sinker: Three years Maureen that's a big deal.

Maureen Johnson: We were not supposed to, I cannot stress enough how much we are not supposed to be here.

Dan Sinker: Yeah. Does feel like we're under some sort of like witch's curse.

Maureen Johnson: Yeah, that we're definitely there's a spell.

Dan Sinker: Yeah.

Maureen Johnson: I remember in fact ‘cause I'm back in the bedroom today because I, because of the guests and the [00:53:00] puppy and I remember back then Dan I'm looking at the closet I would record in that closet over there and I would get in there with all the cloths. [Laughs]. That was my sound proofing is I would squeeze myself into my closet with all my cloths and my shoes and it was very dark and I'd squish in there with a little folding chair and I have my computer on my lap and it would so, if we tried to talk to you and we would talk to all of these reporters and all of the people we talked to about the election and how great it would and it would be over soon. But I, I finally remember just being surrounded by cloths and shoes in my face.

Dan Sinker: [Laughs]. Darkness.

Maureen Johnson: Talking about how oh, it'll be over so soon.

Dan Sinker: Turns out joke was on us Maureen.

Maureen Johnson: Now, you know, we're building flame throwers, we're taking Instapots on planes, we're covered in chains-

Dan Sinker: Yeah.

Maureen Johnson: [00:54:00] We're, we're, we're just, we're signing up for teams to fight in elections that are over a year away.

Dan Sinker: It's good. It's good and it is made possible Maureen not by you or me but by you the listener, through your support of us on All of you Says Whovians you are hopefully this is helping you, you are helping us. Thank you.

Maureen Johnson: And honestly listen to Dan. He's barely alive. Your support-

Dan Sinker: It's true.

Maureen Johnson: Is keeping Dan alive. I mean he's, he's out in LA he's confused. I think the only thing keeping him going right now is the thought of one of those tacos that he likes.

Dan Sinker: Ah.

Maureen Johnson: But-

Dan Sinker: I had Mole last night Maureen that blew my mind. I wanted just a vat [00:55:00] of it that I could crawl into.

Maureen Johnson: You get very excited when you go to LA and have that kind of-

Dan Sinker: I do. Food is, food in LA is incredible.

Maureen Johnson: But if you're not in LA-

Dan Sinker: It's just incredible.

Maureen Johnson: And you need something to eat why not sign up for-

Dan Sinker: The fuck. Goddammit.

Maureen Johnson: Blue Apron.

Dan Sinker: [Laughs].

Maureen Johnson: Blue Apron special, three years special.

Dan Sinker: [Laughs]. Goddammit.

Maureen Johnson: Go to blueapron\\/-

Dan Sinker: Damn it.

Maureen Johnson: Says Who\three years.

Dan Sinker: Uh, damn it.

Maureen Johnson: Just get-

Dan Sinker: Nothing.

Maureen Johnson: It's just a box that is full of Mole, it's not in an kind of container. It's gonna be real drippy.

Dan Sinker: Our theme music is performed by Ted Leo. The logo was designed by Darth.

Maureen Johnson: No. Also there'll be a emotional support Instapot in there. You can make like yogurt in it.

Dan Sinker: You can contact us @sayswho podcast on Twitter. You can email @hey, that is H-E-Y

Maureen Johnson: You can take it on a plane.

Dan Sinker: Join the discussion on Facebook.

Maureen Johnson: Sit next to you.

Dan Sinker: @/groups/sayswhovians. [00:56:00] Our Facebook group is moderated by Janice Dillard.

Maureen Johnson: Now come in the middle of the night and leave an Instapot next to you on the pillow.

Dan Sinker: And you, yes, you can spread the word, subscribe and please leave stars and reviews on Apple Podcast or wherever you listen. Reviews are incredibly helpful. Thank you for writing them. And-

Maureen Johnson: I really can't believe you didn't see that one Dan. I just-

Dan Sinker: I didn't. I cannot, I basically can't actually see anything right now Maureen. I, it, I cannot underscore how terrible my day is going to go today due to the sheer level of exhaustion that I- I'm experiencing right now. Anyway you can join us-

Maureen Johnson: Well, next-

Dan Sinker: On September-

Maureen Johnson: Next weekend.

Dan Sinker: 25th hmm, that's-

Maureen Johnson: Dan.

Dan Sinker: Yeah.

Maureen Johnson: Next, next week.

Dan Sinker: Next yes, yes. Next week.

Maureen Johnson: I will [00:57:00] not be coming to you from New York City.

Dan Sinker: No.

Maureen Johnson: No. I'll be coming to you live from Greece.

Dan Sinker: From the Grecian Islands.

Maureen Johnson: It's true. I'll be in Greece.

Dan Sinker: Wow.

Maureen Johnson: So, it'll be-

Dan Sinker: Maybe you'll be really tired.

Maureen Johnson: It'll be very fun trying to find our, uh, our recording window.

Dan Sinker: [Laughs]. What could go wrong? What could possibly go wrong?

Maureen Johnson: Nothing.

Dan Sinker: Nothing at all. You are in Greece next week Maureen on a writer's retreat but at the end of October, I don't have the dates in front of me so I'm just gonna say the end of October you're gonna be in Austin, Texas for the Texas Book Festival. And at the beginning of October, I will be in Chicago at the American Writer's Museum with Annalee Newitz who is touring on her brand new book that actually comes out next week, [00:58:00] The Future of another Timeline and it is amazing. Buy her book.

Maureen Johnson: I'm also gonna have some pre order information for my new book soon. How you can get it signed.

Dan Sinker: Yeah.

Maureen Johnson: Pre order, um, I did the tipping sheets so there are a bunch of pre- of signed books that will be out in the wild.

Dan Sinker: That's fancy.

Maureen Johnson: Uh, but there'll be pre order campaign coming soon and let's-

Dan Sinker: I like the idea that when you say they're out in the wild like there is an intern at, uh, your, your book publisher who is duct taping books to like deer right now.

Maureen Johnson: Yeah, that's right.

Dan Sinker: They're just covered in ticks.

Maureen Johnson: And-

Dan Sinker: But it's worth it.

Maureen Johnson: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. You will get Lyme disease from it but, uh, it will be signed.

Dan Sinker: Yeah.

Maureen Johnson: So books. It's worth it.

Dan Sinker: Books. You can join us next week. We'll figure out how to record it, uh, September 25th for our next episode. That will be the first episode [00:59:00] into our fourth year, won't it?

Maureen Johnson: And I'll take the microphone outside so you can hear the sound of the water.

Dan Sinker: Whoa.

Maureen Johnson: And-

Dan Sinker: Ah.

Maureen Johnson: The Greek, the ocean lapping at the, at the, the mythical, the, the truly mythical scenery Dan.

Dan Sinker: Yeah, literally.

Maureen Johnson: This is this is-

Dan Sinker: Literally mythical.

Maureen Johnson: Yeah. I am psyched as hell. I've never been to Greece.

Dan Sinker: It's-

Maureen Johnson: Oh boy.

Dan Sinker: Yeah, it's gonna be a good time. It's gonna be a good time but right now Maureen I'm in my hotel in Los Angeles and I'm Dan Sinker.

Maureen Johnson: And you're doing, you're doing great. You're doing great Dan.

Dan Sinker: I'm doing wonderful. I'm doing wonderful.

Maureen Johnson: Dan proud of you.

Dan Sinker: Thanks.

Maureen Johnson: You're welcome.

Dan Sinker: Okay.

Maureen Johnson: You want me to say my name don't you?

Dan Sinker: I was thinking that would be [01:00:00] nice.

Maureen Johnson: Do you get coffee after this, like when we get off?

Dan Sinker: I will. Yeah.

Maureen Johnson: Hmm.

Dan Sinker: Well, first I got to take a shower then, then coffee.

Maureen Johnson: You get coffee. When-

Dan Sinker: Yeah.

Maureen Johnson: When you shower do you put a little, um, shower cap around your beard?

Dan Sinker: No. I, I, I wash and condition my beard Maureen. I'm not a monster.

Maureen Johnson: You condition? You condition your beard?

Dan Sinker: Oh yeah. Yeah that's how it's so flowy and, and luxurious.

Maureen Johnson: How long does it take to dry?

Dan Sinker: Not that long. Think, you know, dry time.

Maureen Johnson: Like how long?

Dan Sinker: I never really timed it.

Maureen Johnson: How long?

Dan Sinker: Like 20 minutes something

Maureen Johnson: So when it's still wet does it look like kind of a straggly like wet dog kind of just like-

Dan Sinker: Yes. Yeah, looks like a, looks like, like, like a real fluffy dog when their tails gets, uh, when their tail gets wet.

Maureen Johnson: Oh.

Dan Sinker: It looks like that. Kind of juicy wet dog tail.

Maureen Johnson: That's, that's the sad Dan face when his, when his beard is all wet and he's just standing out in the rain with those sad eyes.

Dan Sinker: Exactly.

Maureen Johnson: Just looking, looking in the window, [01:01:00] hey guys.

Dan Sinker: Exactly. Exactly.

Maureen Johnson: I don't have my Instapot. I don't have my Instapot with me.

Dan Sinker: I know.

Maureen Johnson: I'm so sad. I'm tense.

Dan Sinker: Then you can get yogurt out of a, out of a tab.

Maureen Johnson: Dan Sinker, I'm so sad. Can I come in you guys? You got any tacos in there? I just wanna come in. My name's Dan.

Dan Sinker: All right Maureen. We got to wrap it up.

Maureen Johnson: My name, my name is Dan.

Dan Sinker: We got to wrap it up here.

Maureen Johnson: I just wanna come, come on in. Let me in. I'll make a podcast. I'll talk to you about it.

Dan Sinker: It's time to it's time to get done.

Maureen Johnson: Can we have a podcast.

Dan Sinker: I do like you doing my voice.

Maureen Johnson: Yeah.

Dan Sinker: [Laughs]. It's good.

Maureen Johnson: I'm Dan Sinker.

Dan Sinker: [Laughs].

Maureen Johnson: What?

Dan Sinker: God.

Maureen Johnson: Maureen it's time to wrap it up. Come on.

Dan Sinker: [Laughs].

Maureen Johnson: It's time to go. Just say your name. Why don't you just say your name?

Dan Sinker: God this is freaking me out now.

Maureen Johnson: Maureen just say your name. Come on.

Dan Sinker: [Laughs].

Maureen Johnson: Come on my beard is, my beard is wet. Come on.

Dan Sinker: From my basement in New York that's the bedroom I'm Maureen Johnson.

Maureen Johnson: What, that doesn't even sound like you.

Dan Sinker: [01:02:00] And that's my new thing. This has been Says Who.

Maureen Johnson: Oh my God Maureen, I'm so tired. I'm almost dead.

Dan Sinker: Are you hungry? Dan are you hungry?

Maureen Johnson: Yeah.

Dan Sinker: Yeah.

Maureen Johnson: I'm always, yeah.

Dan Sinker: What, what do you think you're gonna have for breakfast?

Maureen Johnson: Uh, I don't know, like some kind of bacon, egg and cheese sandwich or something, I don't know.

Dan Sinker: Yeah.

Maureen Johnson: Like a taco.

Dan Sinker: You don't, do you, are you gonna, are you gonna go to a, to a restaurant to eat it?

Maureen Johnson: Probably yeah I'm in LA, so.

Dan Sinker: Because instead maybe you can have Blue Apron shipped to your hotel room and they could have food in it in a box.

Maureen Johnson: Uh, you did the Blue Apron [laughs].

Dan Sinker: Goddammit. Goddammit.

Maureen Johnson: Ah, yay I win.